Johnny Skeptic

But it is not incumbent upon sketpics to prove that the prophecy was false. If I told you that I saw a pig sprout wings and fly, would the burden of proof be upon me to prove that I saw a pig sprout wings and fly, or upon you to disprove that I saw a pig sprout wings and fly? Of course, the burden of proof would be upon me as the initial declarer or asserter, just like in a court trial. Regarding prophecy, the Bible is the initial declarer or asserter, and since God has refused for millennia to explain himself any further, choosing rather to create a state of confusion where no one can be certain of anything, it is up to Christians to make guesses and speculations that are impossible to reasonably prove based upon the evidence that is provided in the Bible.

Let me put it this way, do you believe that prophecy is a good means for Christians to proselytize unbelievers? If so, why?

Sven

See, this god-dude is supposedly omniscient, which directly translate to all-knowing. Last time I looked, "all" meant "all", that is, it includes the future. In other words, this god-dude supposedly knows what will happen before it happens (since the future isn't exempt from "all"). So he knowns in advance that the situation will change and has no reason to let the prophecy utter in the first place.

Johnny Skeptic

As a skeptic once said in a post, I think it was here at the Secular Web, God has gone out of his way to try to make it appear that he does not exist.

manwithdream

I don't know how to put your quotes on the screen and then answer like you do, so I will just say first to Sven, G-d has to say things sometimes even though He knows the opposite will happen. For example ,in Jonah, G-d said that Nineveh would be destroyed even though He knew that they would repent and not be destroyed. By saying they would be destroyed, He caused them to repent and not be destroyed. If He did not warn them, and just destroyed them, then they would not have repented.
Maybe the same is true about Tyre. He told them they would be destroyed and they saw that the siege against them was very bad, so they surrendered. Jeremiah 27:3 and 11 applied to them also, so they might have been told by Jeremiah that serving Babylon would benefit them and they did it. I will try to answer Johnny Skeptic later. I need to think more. Anyway, I am Jewish , not Christian.

Johnny Skeptic

Since Jews are small in number and votes, I do not wish to engage you in debates. My main opponents are fundamentalist Christians since many of them attempt to legislate their religious views.

dongiovanni1976x

The immutability of the GOOD
1. What is perfectly good is already good and to alter it would therefore negate its perfection.
2. God is the manifestation of this perfect goodness and cannot change, deceive or do anything contrary to what the good is.

If one changes oneself either in a state of mind or by their actions then either (a) they will become better or (b) they will become worse with respect to their original state of being.

If a god were to change him/herself in this respect then this god was not perfectly good.

However, Christians and Jews, claim their God is perfectly good and therefore to change would constitute a contradiction.

No one, especially a god, would change themselves for the worse, and a god by definition is already perfect…So

Therefore, God (s) do NOT change

However there are numerous phrases in the Bible depicting their God altering either his state of mind or his course of action at any given time (see Jer 32:29 God changing from calmness to anger; Ex 32:9-14 "And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people.")

Therefore, if the Bible is true then the God of the Bible either does not exist or is not perfectly immutable.

Thus, you may be right manwithdream. Your G-d, since he changes his mind may have decided against Nebuchadnezzar destroying Tyre...but in doing so you renders him "less than perfect"- which actually fits squarely into the arbitrary justice we see scattered throughout the Bible.

manwithdream

to dongiovanni1976x,
I have never heard your argument about G-d being perfect , so He can't change. I think it is off the topic of the thread about Tyre and Ezek 26. It would be interesting if you started another thread with that idea so more people could see it and comment on it. I don't agree with your idea, but I am not sure what to say about it. I would like to read other people's opinions of your idea because I think other people would have answers to it. Maybe it is a common belief, but I am new to this forum and I don't know what people here discuss usually.

dongiovanni1976x

I understand and agree...I added it to a new thread in the General Religious Discussions board if you want to check in and read some comments about it.

Sven

This way: [quote]Text your want to quote[/quote].
(or use [quote=Sven] ... instead)
Or if you simply want to quote one complete post, use the button below it which says (you guessed it) "quote".

So your god is lying. Interesting.

Bullshit. He simply could have said: If you don't repent, I'll do this, but if you do repent, I'll do that.

And of course your god was too dumb (or Ezekiel too deaf) to say this right out. See above.

Doesn't render your apologetics any better. :wave:

manwithdream

To Sven,
You said I am bad at apologetics. I think you are right. I think I am terrible at it.
I did not plan to try to defend G-d and the Torah when I first wrote a post here. I only wanted to give my opinion about Tyre and Ezek 26. I am not trying to convince any one that Ezekiel was a real prophet or not. I was just looking at what Ezekiel said and trying to give a possible explanation that Jeremiah 27:3 and 11 help explain why Tyre was not destroyed after surrendering to Babylon.
I feel that the explanations people are giving about Ezek 26 don't consider this possible explanation.
You said that G-d lied to Nineveh in Jonah by saying that He would destroy them and then He didn't do it. I never noticed that it sounds dishonest to say that they would be destoyed and then He did not destroy them. I only noticed that He had mercy on them. I don't know why He did not say repent or be destroyed. Your point was interesting, but I think people can't really understand G-d .
The only real proof in the world for G-d's existence is when He reveals Himself like at Mount Sinai,or if He tells the future by prophets, or if He does miracles . Since none of those things are going on now, there really isn't any proof like in the old days , so I don't think there is any way to actually convince people today that G-d exists and that the Torah is true. People argue about religion, but there really is no hard proof. I believe without actual proof, and I know that. I don't look at every quote and see them as cruel lies, but as kind truths, but that is only my opinion and not proveable fact.
All of the prophets used miracles as proof. Today we can only use stories about miracles as proof ,and that is pretty weak proof.