Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 03-16-2013, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

I wonder how many participants in this thread are discussing hypothetical practice, and how many are speaking from experience.
The membership of my home congregation has now been formally observing these Sabbaths and Feast days for almost 90 years.
I can hardly express to you the anticipation that precedes each years Paska observance, literally counting down the hours, and relating all of the various verses of the Scriptures in their appropriate times.
All the arguments in the world cannot substitute for this experience, and what is only to be learned through practice.
Baking the unleavened bread from scratch in anticipation is an experience. To get down on your knees and humbly wash the feet of someone you have a disagreement with, is an experience.
Remaining awake, and alert on ha'leyl shemorim 'The Night of Watchings' awaiting the coming of the dawn, is an experience.

Matters that are often never even considered unless one is personally engaged. Matters like when is the first day of the Scriptural year, and of the month of Abib, by what means is it located, and at what exact hour and minute does the day count of the new year begin, -if one is not simply blindly submitting to decrees made by Jewish authorities. Learning what one personally believes about these matters is an eye opening experience.
There are years when the Elders in various of our congregations disagree on the date, then arise the very personal decisions as to which dates to observe, and further how to still maintain peaceful co-existence and unity when opinions, often even between ones loved family members are sharply divided. We work our way through these situations and are forced to learn many things about the Bible and about ourselves in the process. It is an experience, One that conclusions reached in hypothetical discussions or arguments can never approach.

Zealotry can make one stop being rational. We try to do BC&H here, not reminisce over one's religious practices. If you want to read the requisite texts that describe the festivals and partake in their elucidation that's what we do here. If you don't, then you really have nothing of use here to say on the matter.

Please don't air your religious linen here.

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 10:43 PM

Shesh I don't want to hear about it. I've been reading van Goudoever's suggestion about a fixed calendar which ran Sunday to Sabbath in which the Festival of Unleavened Bread just counted a week and the 14th fell where it would within the week. This would explain a lot of anomalies including Luke's (= Marcion's) description of the slaughter of Jesus, the Gospel of Peter and various other traditions. If only there was something more to push the theory (or suggestion) to the level of an actual model to understand the gospel http://books.google.com/books?id=icw...dar%22&f=false

It might certainly help explain the 'three day' or 'after three day' resurrection.

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 11:01 PM

I for one would rather talk about the 364 day calendar at this juncture. http://books.google.com/books?id=L35...2'&f=false If we assume - just for argument's sake - that the gospel was written by someone in a community that used this calendar, then the 14th would have fallen on a Tuesday and the 18th would have been a Sabbath. But this fourteenth couldn't have conformed to the expected full moon of the Jewish Passover. So which date would the community have used to determine Passover?

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 11:03 PM

As far as I can see the 14th would have been the date of Passover regardless of whether or not it would have been a full moon or not:

Quote:

These are the Lord’s appointed festivals, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times: 5 The Lord’s Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. 6 On the fifteenth day of that month the Lord’s Festival of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. 7 On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. 8 For seven days present a food offering to the Lord. And on the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.

Sheshbazzar · 03-16-2013, 11:09 PM

Funny how some people proclaim themselves to be the experts upon something they have never did nor experienced.
One week of doing trumps an entire lifetime of pontificating.

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 11:09 PM

And Jubilees by contrast:

Quote:

Remember the commandment which the Lord commanded thee concerning the passover, that thou shouldst celebrate it in its season on the fourteenth of the first month, that thou shouldst kill it before it is evening, and that they should eat it by night on the evening 4 of the fifteenth from the time of the setting of the sun. 2. For on this night--the beginning of the festival and the beginning of the joy--ye were eating the passover in Egypt, when all the powers of Mastêmâ 5 had been let loose to slay all the first-born in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh to the first-born of the captive maidservant in the mill, and to the cattle. 3. And this is the sign which the Lord gave them: Into every house on the lintels of which they saw the blood of a lamb of the first year, into (that) house they should not enter to slay, but should pass by (it), that all those should be saved that were in the house because the sign of the blood was on its lintels. 4. And the powers of the Lord did everything according as the Lord commanded them, and they passed by all the children of Israel, and the plague came not upon them to destroy from amongst them any soul either of cattle, or man, or dog. 5. And the plague was very grievous in Egypt, and there was no house in Egypt where there was not one dead, and weeping and lamentation. 6. And all Israel was eating the flesh of the paschal lamb, and drinking the wine, 1 and was lauding and blessing, and giving thanks to the Lord God of their fathers, and was ready to go forth from under the yoke of Egypt; and from the evil bondage. 7. And remember thou this day all the days of thy life, and observe it from year to year all the days of thy life, once a year, on its day, according to all the law thereof, and do not adjourn (it) from day to day, or from month to month. 8. For it is an eternal ordinance, and engraven on the heavenly tables regarding all the children of Israel that they should observe it every year on its day once a year, throughout all their generations; 2 and there is no limit of days, for this is ordained for ever. 9. And the man who is free from uncleanness, and doth not come to observe it on occasion of its day, so as to bring an acceptable offering before the Lord, and to eat and to drink before the Lord on the day of its festival, that man who is clean and close at hand will be cut off; because he offered not the oblation of the Lord in its appointed season, he will take the guilt upon himself. 1 10. Let the children of Israel come and observe the passover on the day of its fixed time, on the fourteenth day of the first month, between the evenings, from the third part of the day to the third part of the night, for two portions of the day are given to the light, and a third part to the evening. 2 11. That is that which the Lord commanded thee that thou shouldst observe it between the evenings. 12. And it is not permissible to slay it during any period of the light, but during the period bordering on the evening, 3 and let them eat it at the time of the evening until the third part of the night, 4 and whatever is leftover of all its flesh from the third part of the night and onwards, let them burn it with fire. 13. And they shall not cook it with water, nor shall they eat it raw, but roast on the fire: 5 they shall eat it with diligence, 6 its head with the inwards thereof 7 and its feet they shall roast with fire, and not break any bone thereof; 8 for †of the children of Israel no bone shall be crushed†. 9 14. For this reason the Lord commanded the children of Israel to observe the passover on the day of its fixed time, and they shall not break a bone thereof; for it is a festival day, and a day commanded, and there may be no passing over from day to day, and month to month, but on the day of its festival let it be observed. 15. And do thou command the children of Israel to observe the passover throughout their days, every year, once a year on the day of its fixed time, and it will come for a memorial well pleasing before the Lord, and no plague will come upon them to slay or to smite 1 in that year in which they celebrate the passover in its season in every respect according to His command. 16. And they shall not eat it outside the sanctuary 2 of the Lord, but before the sanctuary of the Lord, and all the people of the congregation of Israel shall celebrate it in its appointed season. 17. And every man who hath come upon its day shall eat it in the sanctuary of your God before the Lord from twenty years old 3 and upward; for thus is it written and ordained that they should eat it in the sanctuary of the Lord. 18. And when the children of Israel come into the land which they are to possess, into the land of Canaan, and set up the tabernacle of the Lord in the midst of the land in one of their tribes until the sanctuary of the Lord hath been built in the land, let them come and celebrate the passover in the midst of the tabernacle of the Lord, and let them slay it before the Lord from year to year. 19. And in the days when the house hath been built in the name of the Lord in the land of their inheritance, they shall go there and slay the passover in the evening, at sunset, at the third part of the day. 20. And they will offer its blood on the threshold of the altar, and shall place its fat on the fire which is upon the altar, and they shall eat its flesh roasted with fire in the court of the house 4 which hath been sanctified in the name of the Lord. 21. And they may not celebrate the passover in their cities, 1 nor in any place save before the tabernacle of the Lord, or before His house where His name hath dwelt; and they will not go astray from the Lord. 22. And do thou, Moses, command the children of Israel to observe the ordinances of the passover, as it was commanded unto thee; declare thou unto them every year †and the day of its days, and† 2 the festival of unleavened bread, that they should eat unleavened bread seven days, (and) that they should observe its festival, and that they bring an oblation every day during those seven days of joy before the Lord on the altar of your God. 23. For ye celebrated this festival with haste 3 when ye went forth from Egypt till ye entered into the wilderness of Shur; 4 for on the shore of the sea ye completed it. [Jubilees 49]

It would be at least theoretically possible to have the 14th fall within a seven day Festival of Unleavened Bread in a community that used only the Book of Jubilees.

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 11:20 PM

Another thought. If the Christian community used this 364 day calendar 'the third day' could be the 14th (Tuesday = 'the third day'). No?

Sheshbazzar · 03-16-2013, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I for one would rather talk about the 364 day calendar at this juncture.

And I would rather talk about the 367.5 day calendar.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I for one would rather talk about the 364 day calendar at this juncture. http://books.google.com/books?id=L35...2'&f=false If we assume - just for argument's sake - that the gospel was written by someone in a community that used this calendar, then the 14th would have fallen on a Tuesday and the 18th would have been a Sabbath. But this fourteenth couldn't have conformed to full moon of Leviticus 23:4 - 6. So which date would the community have used to determine Passover?

Where does Leviticus 23:4 - 6 say anything about a full moon?

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 11:25 PM

It is even more explicit in Theodotos's version of the prediction of Jesus:

And when he says "The Son of Man must be rejected and insulted and crucified," he seems to be speaking of someone else, that is, of him who has passion. And he says, "On the third of the days I will go before you into Galilee." For he goes before all and indicated that he will raise up the soul which is being invisibly saved and will restore it to the place where he is now leading the way. And he died at the .departure of the Spirit which had descended upon him in the Jordan, not that it became separate but was withdrawn in order that death might also operate on him, since how did the body die when life was present in him? [61]

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Where does Leviticus 23:4 - 6 say anything about a full moon?

It doesn't. But the religious authorities make sure that it corresponds for reasons not in the text.

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03-16-2013, 10:43 PM	#172
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Shesh I don't want to hear about it. I've been reading van Goudoever's suggestion about a fixed calendar which ran Sunday to Sabbath in which the Festival of Unleavened Bread just counted a week and the 14th fell where it would within the week. This would explain a lot of anomalies including Luke's (= Marcion's) description of the slaughter of Jesus, the Gospel of Peter and various other traditions. If only there was something more to push the theory (or suggestion) to the level of an actual model to understand the gospel http://books.google.com/books?id=icw...dar%22&f=false It might certainly help explain the 'three day' or 'after three day' resurrection.

03-16-2013, 11:01 PM	#173
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I for one would rather talk about the 364 day calendar at this juncture. http://books.google.com/books?id=L35...2'&f=false If we assume - just for argument's sake - that the gospel was written by someone in a community that used this calendar, then the 14th would have fallen on a Tuesday and the 18th would have been a Sabbath. But this fourteenth couldn't have conformed to the expected full moon of the Jewish Passover. So which date would the community have used to determine Passover?

03-16-2013, 11:09 PM	#175
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Funny how some people proclaim themselves to be the experts upon something they have never did nor experienced. One week of doing trumps an entire lifetime of pontificating.

03-16-2013, 11:20 PM	#177
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Another thought. If the Christian community used this 364 day calendar 'the third day' could be the 14th (Tuesday = 'the third day'). No?

03-16-2013, 11:25 PM	#179
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	It is even more explicit in Theodotos's version of the prediction of Jesus: And when he says "The Son of Man must be rejected and insulted and crucified," he seems to be speaking of someone else, that is, of him who has passion. And he says, "On the third of the days I will go before you into Galilee." For he goes before all and indicated that he will raise up the soul which is being invisibly saved and will restore it to the place where he is now leading the way. And he died at the .departure of the Spirit which had descended upon him in the Jordan, not that it became separate but was withdrawn in order that death might also operate on him, since how did the body die when life was present in him? [61]

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