Sheshbazzar

How does this;
corralate with this;
Huh???? WTF???

And how does this;
correlate with this:
Flip-flop Flip-flop
Yeah your flopping about certainly is bizarre and Kooky.

As has been pointed out, the Biblical Hebrew of the word has exactly the same range of meaning as is in the Aramaic and the Syriac,
And I challenge you to provide evidence from either Aramaic or Syriac sources that positively proves otherwise.


.

mountainman

Evidently Ephrem did not think that Mani received his teaching from the apostles. As to whether he thought Mani was a believer in Jesus, it seems clear enough that Ephrem brands him as an abominable wretched cursed filthy unmentionable vile heretic, just like Arius of Alexandria. The following Ephrem quote is from The Thorn Among the Tares: Mani and Manichaeanism in the works of Ephraem the Syrian, from Papers presented at the Thirteenth International Conference on Patristic Studies held in Oxford 1999


I have not been able to find out who or what Qamsu was. Does anyone have any idea who or what this Qamsu is? Most certainly I have heard of Arius of Alexandria, and Ephrem appears to class Mani and Arius together. What does that suggest apart from the justifiable inference that Ephrem of Syria is to be considered an orthodox heresiologist?



One possibility is that when Ephrem was 19 years old, at the Council of Nicaea, every single religious cult in the Roman Empire was rejected by the lawful "Pontifex Maximus" as being fit for business as usual. One and one only religion, selected for its emminently pious and monotheistic pedigree, wisdom sayings, secure historical reputation and unquestionable authenticity, was to be embraced by the emperor and his subjects. See the Codex Theodosianus "Religious privileges are reserved for Christians" [326 CE]

It is quite reasonable therefor to expect that not only was Manichaeanism transformed (overnight almost) from a non-Christian to a Christian heresy, but so too were all other traditional Gnostic Egypto-Graeco-Roman and Jewish religious cults in the great milieu of cults and religions within the empire. Evidence for Draconian anti-Jewish laws in the early 4th century include the following from the Codex Theodosianus (313 to 453 CE). This example from 315 CE indicates that some form of "locking down" was in progress.

"Any Jew who stones a Jewish convert to Christianity shall be burned, and no one is allowed to join Judaism".

So IMO we are not dealing with a nice continuous century by century evolution here, but IMO a massive "boundary event" in history that was associated with the first phase of an "extinction event" for many of the old "pagan" religions. If you'd like a modern example, take a look at Stalin's Religious Policies..

An incomplete list of the religions and/or cults and/or "Academies" which commenced to suffer at this time might include the following:

* Graeco-Roman: Zeus, Apollo, Asclepius, Diana, Venus, Minerva, Jupiter, Bacchus, Hercules, Sol Invictus, Mithra, Vesta
* Egyptian: Osiris, Isis, Serapis
* Persian and Hebrew: Judaism, Mandaism, Zoroastrianism, Manichaeanism

* Philosophical Academies: the lineage of the academy of neoplatonism/neopythagoreanism following Pythagoras, Plato, Apollonius of Tyana, Stoics, the Second Sophistic, etc to Plotinus and Porphyry.

Toto

off topic split

stephan huller

OMG!!! Are you telling me that Ephrem disagreed with Mani??? Oh, that would explain why he wrote a work called Refutations of Mani, Marcion, and Bardaisan.

Again, I am at a loss to explain how you can exhibit such bravado to overturn the study of Manichaeanism with absolutely no knowledge of any of the sources. Madness.

Toto

off topic posts on open heart surgery, King Agrippa, and the value of Pete to this forum have been split off here.

Please confine posts on this thread to the topic of Mani and the likelihood that the surviving manuscripts have been Christianized.

stephan huller

Shesh

You are trying to tell me that you aren't aware that Jewish Aramaic and Hebrew are related but ultimately distinct languages?

Sheshbazzar

Unfortunately, certain posts regarding the translation and interpretation of the names Mani and Menachem which were pertinent to our ongoing discussion within this thread were split off into another thread where they have neither any context nor application.

I will answer this question, but no more on this subject until, and unless those 'on topic' posts that are gone missing are restored.

Yes, I am aware that Jewish Aramaic and Hebrew are related but ultimately distinct languages.
More to say but not now.
Hope to be able continue this language discussion in the near future.

Toto

If you identify those posts, I will move them back

Sheshbazzar

#11 for sure.

But do consider that
Post #21 by Stephan speaks to his 'heart surgery' analogy approach to the subject of being 'qualified' to engage in historical Biblical scholarship.

Post #28 presents my views on the flaws inherent in that analogy, and in that approach to the study of history and Bible scholarship.

We have divergent views and approaches to the subject of accurate historical investigation, and regarding the 'credentials' or 'qualifications' required for accurate Biblical scholarship.

These two posts serve to well illustrate those fundamental differences of concept and of approach, that fuel all of our arguments within these Forums.

stephan huller

Still waiting for that argument that demonstrates how, why and when Manichaeanism was Christianized only after Mani's death ...