BadBadBad

No I woke up free from Christian influences in my life, not just fundie Christians. In this Jesus freak country, I'll never be too far from Christianity. Just got invited to a neighbors prayer and fellowship Easter lunch. I just can't wait! I live surrounded by it, but I'll always be free from it.

The Other Michael

RBAC, I think many people consider "nature" to be everything less any impact by man.

So your basic primeval forest is nature, and that same forest filled with strip malls and highways is no longer nature.

So nature is just everything that hasn't been created by homo sapiens, and that's a heap of stuff.

Pretty impressive, isn't it?

But I can be impressed by it without attributing anything spiritual to it.

I'll leave it to someone else to define "spiritual".

cheers,
Michael

BadBadBad

What you're looking for is a very RBAC thing to ask. Very rational. A very good rational question. I expect you could really appreciate a fine answer.

Me too. Only substitute God for nature, and you go first.

No, no I'll go ahead and go first, then you.

Nature: the external world in its entirety

Stacey Melissa

I think I can vouch for something like that. My religious experiences were physiologically akin the feeling of butterflies in the stomach when falling in love, or maybe just going on a great first date. Those were the times when I felt God or Jesus was trying to tell me something. And the more butterflies, the more important the message. Of course, I no longer attribute the source of those experiences to supernatural entities, but there is no denying the experiences themselves.

Prayer, OTOH, was usually a struggle for me. I never knew much of what to say to God, and struggled even more in determining what he was trying to tell me. I never heard any audible voice of God or anything like that. I never even heard God talking back to me using my own voice. Looking back, prayer seemed as much a personal reflection as anything. If you've ever seen Mulholland Drive, just look at the short, creepy conversation between the mafia thug and the mafia boss who is in a wheelchair and behind glass (Mr. Roque), if you want some idea of what prayer was like for me...

Rational BAC

Actually I like our esteemed administrator's definition the best. But I don't see how anyone could get very weepy eyed and sentimental about it like some atheists are wont to do in this thread.

So, somehow, you have to extend that definition (at least a little bit). So that all of you atheists can somehow explain how you can get so very weepy eyed and sentimental about that almost indefineable term---------"Nature".

Somehow I do not get any kind of warm and fuzzy feeling from either your definition or Michael's definition. Does anybody? Can any atheist explain their feelings objectively and rationally?

Again -----this is a challenge.

I don't think that any atheist can explain his or her very strong emotions rationally about anything at all--------including "Nature". It is something they just accept unthinkingly.

"Oh the sweet mystery of life"

Rational BAC

Decided not to delve into the sweet mysteries of life ---huh?

Don't be such fraidy cats. Please define "nature" ----

[EDIT: general insult deleted] "Oh that sunset--isn't it divine?------(whoops--did not really mean divine). Meant something else besides divinity or having to do with God (for Gawd's sake)

OK Your turn all you atheists--

--please define that very emotional thing (seemingly) that you have about that indefineable thing called "NATURE".

Define it in some way that makes a little bit of rational sense---------considering all the super sentimental previous posts on this subject.

Thanks in advance.

(Am waiting with bated breath for the usual explanations concerning chemical transformation in the brain and endorphins)

OK---have your turn at explaining very mystical and sentient things felt by both atheists and theists alike in your very rational and scientific manner of explaining such things.

Don't keep hiding from this one.

Leah

here you go:

There is this little girl that is tought day in and day out that god is loving, he made the butterflies, and the flowers, and you and me and one day he will make a wonderful paradise in which we will all live together in peace. There will be no racism, and no wars, no desease, no injustice, no fear and death will be nomore, because god is loving and he loves us all.
And one is being tought that all suffereing is just for us to prove that we are worthy of god and of this wonderful new order of a paradise on earth.

As you grow up you experience and see a lot of suffering outside of this protected little religious life and within. There are wars all over the world, starvation, humiliation, abuse, all over. And this loving god is watching all this, to prove a point to human kind and to a former angel and his followers, since god can not accept another opinion, someone who thinks that it is ok to distinguish good from evil.
Also do you experience injustice of many kind within this protected little society called the "New World Order", you experince child abuse, violence, alcoholism, dishonesty, hypocricy, racism, materialism, vanity, injustice of many kind, ...., but we are all imperfect, and it is part of the clensing for the lord.

You are to pray to a lord and do so at least four times a day, an hour a day. And he will answer your prayers.

But all that you see is the reliability of the moon, its effects on nature and the ocean and even human kind. You see the effects of the sun, that people are happier when it is shining, and more depressed when it is covered by clouds.
You experience the postive effect a fresh green has on our daily mood, and the negative effects a grey sky has.
You learn that differend natural senses have different effects on our nervous system, that different herbs have different effects and can be used to heal or sooth.
You find that the time you spend in nature is a lot more effective then the time you used to spent praying. And at the same time you find, that as you are gardening or walking along nature, your mind is just as sensitive if not more, and that the truth often lies within you, the answers are right there, you just needed the peace to see them.
Nature is the simplicity and self-creation, the never-ending circle of life.
Nature does not demand, order or threat, but it will reward your effort with beauty and growth, it is always there, unless we chose to destroy it. But since we are part of this circle, destroying nature would mean to destroy us all.
Nature is humble, it does not demand to be served or obeyed, while we need to do so in order to survive.

The moon in the sky reveals it's beauty to all human kind, it might be the last thing a starving child can see, while you are stareing at it with a glass of red wine on your luxerious terrace. But since the moon does not claim to be a devinity, we don't need to feel no bitterness towards it for letting that child on that other continent die as we are looking at the moon.

That is my little attempt to explain my love to nature, my trust in nature.
Who is god?

Scary Mary

Gosh. I had no idea how few people knew what nature was!

I've highlighted those definitions that apply to this discussion. Does that help any? You starting to get it now?

"Super sentimental?" "Grand majesty and power" and "awesome, impartial, and perfect" are "super sentimental?" Huh. I had no idea. Are you sure you're using the same definition the rest of us are using?

How about if I explain it in a way that makes sense to [EDIT: implied insult removed] you:

NATURE EXISTS. NO ONE DOUBTS THAT NATURE EXISTS. NATURE DOES NOT NEED CONVERTS TO CONTINUE EXISTING; IT DOES NOT NEED FOLLOWERS TO CONVINCE OTHERS OF ITS EXISTENCE. NATURE DOES NOT THREATEN ME IF I DON'T KISS ITS A$$. NATURE IS QUANTIFIABLE, AND INFINITELY MEASURABLE. NATURE DOESN'T KICK ME OUT OR DEMOTE ME IF I DON'T GIVE IT MONEY OR LIP SERVICE.

And finally: NATURE CONTINUES TO BE PHYSICALLY COMPLETE IN AND OF ITSELF, WHETHER MAN EXISTS OR NOT.

Can you say those things about your god?

Stacey Melissa

See, that's the thing about feelings/emotions. They aren't supposed to be be rational. Different people experience different emotions in regard to different things. Just because you don't feel the same way about nature that some of us do, doesn't mean our feelings for it aren't real.

I live a few hundred feet from the Arkansas River, and sometimes go walking alongside it. The feeling I get is one of contentedness. And that is completely irrational, for how could a river make me content, given that I'm not a fish or an amphibian? Maybe it's just an escape from the daily grind. That's something shared in common with religion, so maybe there's a clue.

Rational BAC

Scary Mary---

---Don't you just love dictionaries? So many words. So many meaningless words.

What is nature? What is nature to you? To hell with the damned dictionary by committee (which all dictionaries are)

Tell me the truth that dictionaries cannot tell.

I only care about YOUR definition of nature---not some God damned committee's definition of nature.

So spill your guts. Do not be afraid.

(And Stacey ---I really liked your post. Thanks for your input)