Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DCHindley · 06-18-2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

OK, here is a citation from the Wikipedia page on the codices:

Elkington stated [in this press release] that the find was of "up to 70 ring-bound books (codices) made of lead and copper. Many of them are sealed on all sides. Scrolls, tablets and other artifacts, including an incense bowl, were also found at the same site.

Maybe they were supposed to have tested samples of one or more of those "scrolls, [wood?] tablets" and/or soot from that "incense bowl." I believe what he calls an "incense bowl' is essentially a lamp. Interesting thing about lamps, is that there are a lot of them out there which can be dated within a century by their style of manufacture. IIRC, one of these distinctive styles for lamps came into vogue in the region right around the beginning of the 2nd century. How convenient ...

DCH

That press release also says something about findings these things sealed in a niche of the wall of the cave, which was partially exposed by a "flash flood".

There is an interesting account of the discovery of the Apocalypse of Paul (aka Revelation of Paul, which is not the Gnostic one from the NHL):

In the consulate of Theodosius Augustus the younger and Cynegius [388 CE], a certain honourable man then dwelling at Tarsus, in the house which had been the house of Saint Paul, an angel appeared unto him by night and gave him a revelation, saying that he should break up the foundation of the house and publish that which he found; but he thought this to be a lying vision. 2 But a third time the angel came, and scourged him and compelled him to break up the foundation. And he dug, and found a box of marble inscribed upon the sides: therein was the revelation of Saint Paul, and his shoes wherein he walked when he taught the word of God. But he feared to open that box, and brought it to the judge; and the judge took it, sealed as it was with lead, and sent it to the emperor Theodosius fearing that it might be somewhat strange; and the emperor when he received it, opened it and found the revelation of Saint Paul. A copy thereof he sent to Jerusalem and the original he kept with him.

Just substitute the walled up niche of a cave in Transjordan for the foundation of a house in Tarsus, the sealed lead codices for the marble box containing the revelation of Paul and relics sealed with lead, and the Royal Jordanian Dept of Antiquities for the Emperor Theodosius himself.

One of the mss sources also gives this little explanation for the late discovery:

And the angel who was with me led me forth, and said unto me: Lo, unto thee is given this mystery and revelation: as thou pleasest, make it known unto the sons of men.

And I, Paul, returned unto myself, and I knew all that I had seen [in the revelation]: and in life I had not rest that I might reveal this mystery, but I wrote it and deposited it under the ground and the foundations of the house of a certain faithful man with whom I used to be in Tarsus a city of Cilicia. And when I was released from this life of time, and stood before my Lord, thus said he unto me: Paul, have we shown all these things unto thee that thou shouldst deposit them under the foundations of a house? Then send and disclose concerning this revelation, that men may read it and turn to the way of truth, that they also may not come to these bitter torments.

I bolded those two sentences in the last excerpt because it seem that Elkington sees himself as a sort of prophet explaining mysteries about Jesus and early Christianity.

DCH

Toto · 07-27-2011, 09:27 AM

UPDATE:
Back in the news again

But this time the story is "fraud in archaeology."

Quote:

The Holy Land is one of the homes of archaeology. Indeed for years, one of the main purposes of the science was to search for tangible evidence that would prove the truth of the stories of the Bible.

And there has always been money in it too.

There are enough pieces of the "True Cross" in circulation to make a wooden aircraft carrier. And enough nails to put it together.

British taxpayers will wince at the thought that a king of England once paid 100,000 gold coins for the "real" crown of thorns from the New Testament.

There are stories of not one but several foreskins of Jesus which have been recovered, sold and venerated and of the feathers of the wings of the Archangel Michael being preserved in Pennsylvania.

EmmaZunz · 08-01-2011, 03:53 PM

These are known fakes, I thought.

Toto · 08-22-2011, 11:26 AM

Lead Codices Facebook page

Quote:

This site has been set up as a source of information whilst the website is under construction. Both Facebook page and website are moderated by the Jordanian-Anglo Team, which for over two years has been working on the historical, linguistic and forensic analysis of the codices, and which first brought the codices to public attention with the news announcement on the BBC Today Show on 29 April 2011. The announcement has made it harder for the codices to be sold on the black market.

It appears that comments noting the fraudulent nature of the codices will be removed.

DCHindley · 08-22-2011, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Lead Codices Facebook page

Quote:

This site has been set up as a source of information whilst the website is under construction. Both Facebook page and website are moderated by the Jordanian-Anglo Team, which for over two years has been working on the historical, linguistic and forensic analysis of the codices, and which first brought the codices to public attention with the news announcement on the BBC Today Show on 29 April 2011. The announcement has made it harder for the codices to be sold on the black market.

It appears that comments noting the fraudulent nature of the codices will be removed.

I took a look, and my opinion is that most of the people who are "friends" seem to be fake. It's pretty amateurish stuff. My guess is this is from the metallurgist.

DCH

Toto · 08-22-2011, 03:58 PM

The links section has a saved copy of an interview from last Saturday on Coast to Coast with Elkington. He claims that the codices have passed some tests, and the Jordanian government will come out with an announcement soon.

I'll have to listen again - I caught something about the Clementine Recongitions?

DCHindley · 08-22-2011, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The links section has a saved copy of an interview from last Saturday on Coast to Coast with Elkington. He claims that the codices have passed some tests, and the Jordanian government will come out with an announcement soon.

I'll have to listen again - I caught something about the Clementine Recongitions?

Hmmmm. Where did I remember hearing about the Clementine recognitions ... ?

There is supposed to be a copy of the report, but it is such low resolution that it is virtually unreadable. What I can read, I can detect several typos and non-standard English grammar. FWIW, the transcription here cleans up the grammatical errors. Look for the pictures and compare.

DCH

Cege · 08-22-2011, 05:29 PM

Coast to Coast says it. I believe it. That settles it.

(what did Coast to Coast say, again? I missed it and now I don't know what I believe

)

Toto · 08-23-2011, 12:07 PM

Tom Verenna

Quote:

And so we are once again brought back to these codices. Elkington and company will not stop pretending, it seems. This time they might have unintentionally admitted to their forgeries:

Approximately two months ago, Hassan Saida, the Israeli Bedouin who smuggled the Jordan Codices into Israel, telephoned to inform the team that he and his cohorts had made 500 forgeries of various of the codices and put them into the Jerusalem market. We didn’t think too much of it as he tells lots of tales; however, one of team members was sent these two photographs by someone who purchased them in Israel. To those who have seen the real McCoy, these were obvious forgeries. ...

So now it is claimed that there are forgeries of the genuine articles, which were obtained from an admitted forger. :constern01:

Tom Verenna includes more links, a discussion and comments, concluding:

Quote:

In the end, however, Elkington and company have only revealed their hand: they have admitted to having the means and the shop to fabricate, and in a short amount of time, lead codices. Just because this batch turned out to be crappier than their earlier versions does not make the originals any more authentic or ‘genuine’ than the 500 they admit are forgeries. The only thing it means is that their workshop has not yet been discovered and they have not yet been held accountable for their lies.

The plot thickens.

Toto · 08-23-2011, 12:19 PM

There are two other Facebook pages on the lead codices: The Jordan Lead Codices are Fake! and another one that is merely a copy of the wikipedia page. Some skeptics are now commenting on the "Jordan Codices" FB page.

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08-01-2011, 03:53 PM	#173
EmmaZunz Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: UK Posts: 98	These are known fakes, I thought.

08-22-2011, 03:58 PM	#176
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The links section has a saved copy of an interview from last Saturday on Coast to Coast with Elkington. He claims that the codices have passed some tests, and the Jordanian government will come out with an announcement soon. I'll have to listen again - I caught something about the Clementine Recongitions?

08-22-2011, 05:29 PM	#178
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	Coast to Coast says it. I believe it. That settles it. (what did Coast to Coast say, again? I missed it and now I don't know what I believe )

08-23-2011, 12:19 PM	#180
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There are two other Facebook pages on the lead codices: The Jordan Lead Codices are Fake! and another one that is merely a copy of the wikipedia page. Some skeptics are now commenting on the "Jordan Codices" FB page.

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