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Reload this Page What is the historical evidence for the trial of Jesus and the Crucifixion?
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Old 01-02-2006, 06:03 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Chris Weimer
Matthew and Luke also have material not from Mark which could be from a different tradition altogether.
Yes, there is Q, and both M and L have their own material. Does their special material need to go back to a tradition?
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:54 AM   #52
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Yes, there is Q, and both M and L have their own material. Does their special material need to go back to a tradition?
If Q, then certainly. I would also argue that some material in M and L go back to an early tradition. We discussed it here.
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Old 01-02-2006, 12:07 PM   #53
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mata leao's claim that atheists reject god because of bitterness or bad religious experiences and responses have been split off here
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Old 01-02-2006, 01:27 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Chris Weimer
If Q, then certainly. I would also argue that some material in M and L go back to an early tradition. We discussed it here.
Thanks Chris, I'll take a look. It seems every question I raise has already been dissected!
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Old 01-02-2006, 02:54 PM   #55
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Thanks Chris, I'll take a look. It seems every question I raise has already been dissected!
Probably a million times in a million different places. But hey, that's the nature of learning. And we are all still learning.
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Old 01-03-2006, 06:15 PM   #56
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I look forward to reading comments from readers.
The enemies of Christianity - the Jesus Seminar accept Christ crucified.

Next question.

Ray
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Old 01-03-2006, 07:28 PM   #57
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The enemies of Christianity - the Jesus Seminar accept Christ crucified.

Next question.
How are the members of the JS "enemies of Christianity?" Most of them are Christians.
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Old 01-04-2006, 09:24 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Mountain Man
... A complete lack of contemporary [eyewitness] support for something like this speaks loudly. ...

Could there be some other reason for a lack of contemporaneous support? After all, there were no online news media in those days and no reason to think the 1st generation of disciples were even literate.

BTW, I consider "Q" to have been contemporaneous documentary evidence, along with some bits of GThomas and the undisputed Pauline Epistles (omitting as disputed: Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thess, the Timothys and Titus). I would also judge Mark, M & L, judiciously considered, to be evidentiary.
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Old 01-04-2006, 09:31 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by jgibson000
They fall with the genre of Helleinistic BIOI.
From what I've read, the Gospel genre seems to combine the BIOS with the Encomium. Both types can include a lot of fiction, while conveying at least some core history.
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Old 01-04-2006, 09:46 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Vorkosigan
Name the storytelling conventions of the Hellenistic Romantic Fictions that occur in the Gospels/Acts? Certainly. Here are a few
  • Story elements
:
crucifixions
emtpy tombs
return from death/narrow reprieves from death
travel narratives
trials before local potentates
the person is innocent, but either insists on guilt and demands to be executed or does not protest
explanations of exotic customs
entering the city and being taken for a divine personage
being a child of god/like a god
crowds following the hero
restricted range of settings for the tale
recognition scenes at the end
prayers granted by the gods
protagonist has no childhood, life begins at young adulthood
religious themes
  • construction elements
use of history and historical characters
episodic style
doublets and triplets
chiastic structures
creation by paralleling events from history and sacred texts
scenes that function as typologies for the story
That's a very thorough list of period novelistic elements. It fits nicely with the Greek novels found in B.P. Reardon's Collected Ancient Greek Novels (U.Cal. Press). Allowing for a change in time period, we could find them in Gone With The Wind. Trouble is, GWTW also contains some decent history, so the sheer presence of novel elements in a period that did not recognize the rigors of what we call "history" should not be used to throw out both baby and bathwater. IMHO, of course.
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