Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 03-08-2010, 01:13 PM

The following has a brief discussion of the Sermon on the Mount and Socrates. The speakers assume an hj, but has anyone asked is the Sermon on the Mount and the other stuff about turning cheeks and giving shirts originally Socrates? I do not mean generally as with the golden rule. but specific quote mining?

http://www.hodder.co.uk/books/work.aspx?WorkID=147206

Quote:

Melvyn Bragg’s In Our Time series regularly entertains and fascinates substantial audiences on BBC Radio 4. For this book he has selected episodes which reflect the diversity of the radio programmes, and take us on an amazing tour through the history of ideas, from philosophy, science and history to politics, literature and art.

This book has an edited transcript of the discussion below about Socrates.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007zp21

Quote:

Melvyn Bragg and guests discuss the Greek philosopher Socrates, acknowledged as one of the founders of Western philosophy. Born in 469 BC into the golden age of the city of Athens, he has profoundly influenced philosophy ever since. In fact, his impact is so profound that all the thinkers who went before are simply known as pre-Socratic.

In person Socrates was deliberately irritating, he was funny and he was rude; he didn’t like democracy very much and spent quite a lot of time in shoe shops. He claimed he was on a mission from God to educate his fellow Athenians but has left us nothing in his own hand because he refused to write anything down.

With Angie Hobbs, Associate Professor of Philosophy at Warwick University; David Sedley, Laurence Professor of Ancient Philosophy at Cambridge University; Paul Millett, Senior Lecturer in Classics at the University of Cambridge.

RELATED LINKS
The Trial of Socrates (www.law.umkc.edu)
Wikipedia - Socrates (en.wikipedia.org)
FURTHER READING
ANCIENT SOURCES:

The Dialogues of Plato (any edition), especially Apology, Euthyphro, Crito, Charmides, Laches, Protagoras

Xenophon (any edition): Apology, Symposium, Memorabilia

Cicero (any edition): Tusculan Disputations

.
MODERN SOURCES:

Kraut, R., Socrates and the State (1984, Princeton University Press)

Montaigne, Essays (especially On Physiognomy) (any edition)

Nehamas, A., The Art of Living: Socratic reflections from Plato to Foucault (1998, University of California Press)

Nietzsche, especially The Birth of Tragedy, Philosophy in the Tragic Age of the Greek, Twilight of the Idols (any edition)

Vlastos, G., Socrates: Ironist and Moral Philosopher (1991, Cambridge University Press)

CCW Taylor, Socrates: A Very Short Introduction (Oxford 1998)

CDC Reeve, The Trials of Socrates: six classic texts (Indianapolis 2002)

I.F. Stone, The Trial of Socrates (London, 1988 - recently reprinted)

M.I. Finley, Socrates and Athens in his Aspects of Antiquity pp.58-72 (London, 1968 - but in print very recently)

Hobbs, A., Female Imagery in Plato in 'Plato's Symposium: Issues in Interpretation and Reception' (edd. J. Lesher, D. Nails and F. Sheffield). (2006, Center for Hellenic Studies, Trustees for Harvard University Press) (This paper discusses, amongst other things, Socrates' depiction of himself as a midwife)

Emily Wilson, The Death of Socrates – Hero, Villain, Chatterbox, Saint (Profile Books, London, July 2007)

Burnyeat, M., Socratic Midwifery, Platonic Inspiration in the 'Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies' (1977, University of London) 24:7-15.

Clivedurdle · 03-08-2010, 01:18 PM

Oh, do not trust what Plato says about Socrates!

Quote:

Marathon and the 21st Century

Are we still fighting the Greek Persian wars?

With the many book tokens I got for Xmas I bought Umberto Eco On Beauty.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2005...ighereducation

This has a discussion of Homer and the beauty of Helen.

Fascinatingly it describes the views of Socrates and Plato as actually being completely different and contradictory, something I had not clearly picked up on before.

For example Plato argued school children should not be taught art, but only geometry, as art is always a misrepresentation of the real truth.

Quote:

Republic

The imitator is a long way off the truth

This idea is fundamental to modern Islam, submission to the truth of Allah, only geometry, no real depiction. It is actually a Persian and probably Egyptian idea, related to hierarchical societies with one god and their human representative in charge. It is also a continual very strong thread in xianity.

In Contrast, Socrates and much Greek thinking was incredibly pragmatic and realistic.

Socrates is reported by Xenophon in Memorabilia as asking

Quote:

Do your statues not have that sense of life because you closely imitate the forms of living beings?

Shouldn't we also portray the threatening look in the eyes of warriors, shouldn't we imitate the look of the conqueror flushed with success?

Indeed we should

In this way, then, the sculptor can depict the workings of the soul through external forms.

And so even a basket for carrying rubbish is thus a beautiful thing?

And a golden shield may be an ugly thing, if the former is well suited and the latter ill suited to their respective purposes

Plato and Paul use the idea of the glass darkly, of us struggling to find the truth or of god, or some ideal.

The Greeks said umm beauty is here, is a golden shield really beautiful or is it ugly because it does not work as a shield?

We have created at least two world wide religions based on this assumption of the ideal - new heaven and earth, Christ bringing together god and man, houris in paradise.

What we are seeing in the twenty first century is a series of religious civil wars between groups with basically the same concept of the ideal, that somehow diverts them into asserting via suicide bombers that my truth is truer than yours, and dumping on the rest of humanity the collateral damage caused by their inability to be pragmatic, to get on with attempting to represent things, increasing skill and artistry and knowledge.

mountainman · 03-09-2010, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

The following has a brief discussion of the Sermon on the Mount and Socrates. The speakers assume an hj, but has anyone asked is the Sermon on the Mount and the other stuff about turning cheeks and giving shirts originally Socrates?

Not sure .... but certainly a number have drawn a parallel to the original stories concerning the Sermons of Buddha (which may have been known by Socrates)

Clivedurdle · 03-10-2010, 08:11 AM

Has anyone proposed that what we are seeing in Mark is a type of teaching play, bringing together pre existing and by then at least four hundred year old Greek ideas?

We have found Homer in Mark.

I propose Socrates is definitely there as well.

And everyone talking about neo - platonists misses the point - that there were very different viewpoints, and Socrates had a very different philosophy to Plato.

What is an ideal shield?

Oh, the choice is not between straight ways and difficult ways. Socrates was about beautiful curves.

Quote:

'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him

More irony?

David Hillman · 03-10-2010, 04:04 PM

Yes I do not trust Plato's or Aristophanes picture of Socrates. I suspect he was much more of a cynic and sceptic, as other traditions suggest. Perhaps he also believed he was taught by daimons. There is no evidence, and a little couter evidence, that he was so opposed to democracy as a political organisation as Plato was. But since Socrates wrote nothing how could his teaching affect anyone in Palestine. (But I agree Hellenic thought was appreciated in Palestine from the time of the Wisdom literature on).

aa5874 · 03-10-2010, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Has anyone proposed that what we are seeing in Mark is a type of teaching play, bringing together pre existing and by then at least four hundred year old Greek ideas?

We have found Homer in Mark.

I propose Socrates is definitely there as well.

And everyone talking about neo - platonists misses the point - that there were very different viewpoints, and Socrates had a very different philosophy to Plato.

What is an ideal shield?

Oh, the choice is not between straight ways and difficult ways. Socrates was about beautiful curves.

Quote:

'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him

More irony?

Socrates? It is more like Isaiah or Malachi.

Isaiah 40:3 -

Quote:

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Malachi 3:1 -

Quote:

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Clivedurdle · 03-12-2010, 04:50 AM

AA I was referring to Socrates idea of beauty.

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03-10-2010, 04:04 PM	#5
David Hillman Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oxford, England Posts: 7	Yes I do not trust Plato's or Aristophanes picture of Socrates. I suspect he was much more of a cynic and sceptic, as other traditions suggest. Perhaps he also believed he was taught by daimons. There is no evidence, and a little couter evidence, that he was so opposed to democracy as a political organisation as Plato was. But since Socrates wrote nothing how could his teaching affect anyone in Palestine. (But I agree Hellenic thought was appreciated in Palestine from the time of the Wisdom literature on).

03-12-2010, 04:50 AM	#7
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	AA I was referring to Socrates idea of beauty.

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