Waning Moon Conrad

Yes but it wasn't Herod the Great / Herod I that ignored Caligula's decree. Sorry to be picky but you need to specify which Herod it was that ignored Caligula's decree.

IamJoseph

Correct. It was Herod the Great's son.

bacht

I kind of agree with this. But the defenders of Jewish liberty in 70 ce were the Zealots, none of whom I would want to meet. They were unprincipled, irreligious and disdainful of any moderation of belief or action. They took the Jews' already shaky reputation among the Hellenistic pagans and brought it even lower. They forced the end of a thousand years of Hebrew tradition by acting like criminals. I suppose one could argue that they enabled God to test his people and preserve a faithful remnant, but this would've been cold comfort to those killed or enslaved.

dragoon

:deadhorse:

semiopen

There was a Jewish war but I'm not sure "Jewish liberty" was an objective... this has been discussed here before and I don't recall seeing any kind of rational explanation for what happened.

IAJ seems better prepared than usual but I doubt that all the Christians fled and all the Jews stayed. The Palestinians presumably stayed. I'd like to think that my ancestors were in the first caravan out.

There is also the fact that many of the Jewish casualties were killed by the zealots and whatever other whack jobs were around at the time. In fact the various Jewish factions were busily exterminating people in Jerusalem and preventing them from leaving while the Romans were building a wall around the city.

IAJ has also reduced his Jewish casualties estimate from 1.1 to .8 million or 27%. Not sure what prompted this reduction, but this is still very close to the probable entire population of Judea going into the war. It would be interesting to see how many of these people were killed by Jewish crazies versus Romans. Probably virtually every casualty in Jerusalem can indirectly be assigned to the Jewish "defenders."

Regarding the Romans having sex with their concubines while they watched the crucified Jews dying; this is horrible but kinky, and like many here, I doubt that it is true. However it does appear possible; if I was a Roman officer, I can imagine going to see the carnage, but don't think I would take my concubine(s). However, assuming some of the Romans made the decision to take their concubines, it is logical that a certain percentage of this group would wind up having sex. I'm not sure there is anything concrete we can learn from this anecdote.

The underlying reason for the war is still not clear. If "freedom of belief" was any part of this, I'd be interested in seeing references myself.

spin

Actually Agrippa, the Herodian king, stayed the fuck out of it, when rioting developed, as did Petronius the legate in Syria. Luckily Caligula met Cassius Chaerea in a dark passage on the Palatine and the statue was forgotten about.


spin

show_no_mercy

Unfortunately, IAJ's anecdote is trying to pin on the Romans what a Jewish ruler had done to his fellow Jews:

semiopen

Thanks, this explains much, IAJ has also mentioned "up to 800 per day" in another thread.

Concubines can be pretty creepy when they are feasting.

IamJoseph

I don't think they were unprinciple when their situation is regarded. This nation was not about to forego their beliefs - you cannot agree and also qualify this till it is nullified. The Jews had a different belief from Europe and Arabia for 2000 years already, and this is the primal factor here. It is far more precarious to ask Jews to forego their belief than say Christians today demanding this of Islam - at least by the measure of time, dna transmission and the numerous wars of defense already incurred.This forum is engaging in denial.



It is hardly possible to bother about anyone's reputation with the Hellenists - this is the people who instigated the war, antisemitism, Roman hatred and christianity itself. They instigated the thought to Nero the Jews were not honoring Rome with sacrifices, which resulted in Nero's decree, a war which challenged the Jews and caused a holocaust [not nin Europe's radar or its Gospels] and the longest exile in history. The Hellenists never forgave the Jews for refusing to bow to Zeus 250 years before.

IamJoseph

No it does not. Both the cuncubine report and the 800 per day is in Josephus' WAR WITH THE JEWS, which describes the event around 70 CE. I'll let some posts flow before I dislodge the selective extracts.