Chris Weimer

Why do you think God exists?

PS - tecoyah, I know you're new and all, but please try to familiarize yourself with users before you go off making inane comments like the above. I'm no Christian, nor do I believe in any deity that "guide[d] the hands of scribes". What nonsense. Just because someone mentioned God doesn't mean the whole story is invalid. What about Holocaust survivors who say that God helped them through? Does that mean Hitler never existed?

Surely you see just how absurd your argument is.

tecoyah

Actually, I see it as a natural progression of the OP topic. The subject matter seems to question the reality of Jesus which brings up the only known documentation we have concerning his life. I simply asked (though admittedly using your post as a jump off) for an explanation that might clarify why ALL scriptural reference should not should not be considered suspect due to an obvious quality inherent to the people who have created it.
If my form was objectionable, I apologize to you. But, as you pointed out I am new here and thus try not to assume anything about anyone. As for the Holocaust reference, I was attempting to explain my inability to accept the Bibles as word of God, not questioning personal experiences of individuals...I have found that is a non-winnable debate.

spamandham

How do we know it started fast? The very few things Paul says about Jesus, that might imply an earthly figure, sound like part of a creed. If these things are genuinely Pauline, it suggests that proto-Christianity was already long established by Paul's time.

Chris Weimer

tecoyah - I don't think you'll find many here arguing that the Bible is the word of God. Some may believe it, but usually keep it to themselves, and others will argue for it, but I assure you it's irrelevant here.

Toto

Chris - I think you opened yourself up to this by asking rhetorically "Tell me, why do you think the Gospels are unreliable? And what do you make of the rest of the New Testament?" If one does not believe in the divine inspiriation of the Bible, there is no reason to assume that the Gospels are at all reliable as historical records. Certainly anyone assuming that they are historical has a lot of explaining to do.

Chris Weimer

So, because a document is not divine, it is unreliable? Surely that cannot be your position, but that's the only criterion above that I see.

What is it about the New Testament that makes it unreliable?

Toto

The gospels are unreliable on their face. There is no author, no date, no discussion of sources - no first person statements explaining who wrote this, on what authority, using what sources, etc. They are theology, not historical record.

The letters of Paul are in the first person, but are impossible to date based on internal sources, and have been edited by two sides of a theological debate.

Chris Weimer

So only that which is so secure is to be used? Or can they at least be used for what they are? What about I Maccabees - is that unreliable too? Or the pesharim in the DSS - do we think that none of that happened either? That's a rather strict criterion. I wonder how much history we lose.

What do you mean "impossible" to date internally?

tecoyah

One can logically assume that a belief in Divine author is implied,thus the term Holy Scripture, and the following it has inspired in humankind. If we are to toss the "God wrote it" aspect away, then the religions themselves have virtually no basis for being in the first place, as they were written by man and carry no weight in the context of divine speech.
Humans are unreliable as a general rule, I think we can all agree on this statement. So if, these writings are not under the guided hand of a supreme entity they also must be considered unreliable. The very premis upon which this religion is based requires these scriptures to be the words of God if they are to have any meaning to the masses, and must therefore show divine inspiration at a minimum. But,even this leaves the nature of mankind to place the words before us....this seems rather problematic, and to claim it as fact seems to me rather ignorant.

show_no_mercy

I've always wanted to ask: What is it about the gospels that makes it reliable?