Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 02-05-2013, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

A gradual move from absolute paganism into something closer to monotheism isn't a REFORMATION?
...

No, it is not, and I will remove the word from your title.

mountainman · 02-05-2013, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There was no Constantinian reformation.

This is debateable.

No it's not, and your own theories do not support this.

Constantine was not a reformer. He did not call for Christians to return to an earlier, purer form of the faith. He established the church that the Reformation eventually rebelled against.

According to Barnes in the article Constantine's Prohibition of Pagan Sacrifice,

Constantine "carried through a systematic and coherent reformation":

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. D. Barnes, The American Journal of Philology, Vol. 105, No. 1 (Spring, 1984), pp. 69-72

it may be argued that in 324 Constantine established Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, and that he carried through a systematic and coherent reformation, at least in the eastern provinces which he conquered in 324 as a professed Christian in a Christian crusade against the last of the persecutor.

Toto · 02-05-2013, 04:58 PM

More quotes out of context.

Your own site has

Quote:

On the assumption that Eusebius' report is reliable and accurate, it may be argued that in 324 Constantine established Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, and that he carried through a systematic and coherent reformation, at least in the eastern provinces which he conquered in 324 as a professed Christian in a Christian crusade against the last of the persecutor.

Are you now going to argue that Eusebius is reliable and accurate, even on this one point?

Will wonders never cease!!

(Most commentators go on to say that Eusebius is not to be believed on this point...)

Duvduv · 02-05-2013, 05:16 PM

Should I list all thread titles that you don't change, or are we treading too close to religious doctrine and terminology that finds such statements unacceptable compared to all the other titles of threads that you must certainly find to be against your views??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

A gradual move from absolute paganism into something closer to monotheism isn't a REFORMATION?
...

No, it is not, and I will remove the word from your title.

Duvduv · 02-05-2013, 05:17 PM

Whether it was Constantine himself or others makes no difference.
Moving from paganism to monotheism definitely a reformation! And the model of a regime setting up a new system as reflected in Tudor England is certainly not irrelevant to what happened in Christianizing Byzantine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

This is debateable.

No it's not, and your own theories do not support this.

Constantine was not a reformer. He did not call for Christians to return to an earlier, purer form of the faith. He established the church that the Reformation eventually rebelled against.

aa5874 · 02-05-2013, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Whether it was Constantine himself or others makes no difference.
Moving from paganism to monotheism definitely a reformation! And the model of a regime setting up a new system as reflected in Tudor England is certainly not irrelevant to what happened in Christianizing Byzantine...

You have no sources. You have rejected all the evidence about the 2nd century Jesus cult so your claims are unsubstantiated.

In order to make claims about the past you must have credible sources.

Are you using Eusebius and the writings of the Roman Church for your history of Constantine??

You might as well use the Donation of Constantine.

You must know that the Church of Rome made many false claims about Constantine and the history of the Church.

Sheshbazzar · 02-05-2013, 07:13 PM

Now that I don't doubt.

Duvduv · 02-05-2013, 07:45 PM

How would you compare the emerging Anglican religion to the emergence of Christianity, AA?
How would you compare destroying the monasteries in England and the debates over doctrine with the emerging and contradictory ideas in the 4th century? How would you compare Athanasius and his role to that of Thomas Cranmer? How would you compare a creation of a canon with the creation of the Book of Common Prayer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Whether it was Constantine himself or others makes no difference.
Moving from paganism to monotheism definitely a reformation! And the model of a regime setting up a new system as reflected in Tudor England is certainly not irrelevant to what happened in Christianizing Byzantine...

You have no sources. You have rejected all the evidence about the 2nd century Jesus cult so your claims are unsubstantiated.

In order to make claims about the past you must have credible sources.

Are you using Eusebius and the writings of the Roman Church for your history of Constantine??

You might as well use the Donation of Constantine.

You must know that the Church of Rome made many false claims about Constantine and the history of the Church.

Chili · 02-05-2013, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I realize that there is a difference: The Anglican reformation was to "restore" the authentic "Catholic" faith that had been sullied by Vaticanism but which was rather comfortable in terms of similarities to Roman Catholicism, and the Constantinian reformation was to establish a purer religion vaguely based on Jewish ideas.

It is completely unsubstantiated that "Constantinian reformation was to establish a purer religion vaguely based on Jewish ideas.

It is already known that the Jesus cult existed for hundreds of years BEFORE Constantine was Emperor.

We have dated writings of the Jesus story about 200 years BEFORE Constantine.

But Catholicism is not a Jesus cult. They are sinners and do "hail Mary's," remember?

Chili · 02-05-2013, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You have no sources. You have rejected all the evidence about the 2nd century Jesus cult so your claims are unsubstantiated.

In order to make claims about the past you must have credible sources.

Are you using Eusebius and the writings of the Roman Church for your history of Constantine??

You might as well use the Donation of Constantine.

You must know that the Church of Rome made many false claims about Constantine and the history of the Church.

Catholicism is not a Christian religion, quite contrary actually as they always stifled, if not eradicated self proclaimed Christians with a salvation recipe of thei own. Remember the heretics? All pius people who were willing to die for their faith in Jesus and even got to chose their own [colorful] recipe to get this done?

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02-05-2013, 07:13 PM	#17
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Now that I don't doubt.

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