Ben C Smith

1 Clement 41.2-3:

Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace offerings, or the sin offerings and the trespass offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to his will are punished with death.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

Josephus, however, seems to say, IIRC, that the Essenes offered sacrifices of their own apart from the temple. There is also the Elephantine temple of an earlier period.

PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

Your hypothesis is close to a hypothesis that I am now support. I believe that there was a heavenly Jesus the Christ in the first century as evidenced in the Book of Revelation. However, I believe that there was no Jesus of Nazareth character until post Bar Kokhba War times.

However, the earthly Jesus of Nazareth was based on a play written circa 40 C.E. about the crucifixion of someone named Simon. A mixing of the heavenly Jesus Christ with the Simon character renamed Jesus of Nazareth, struck gold and caused an explosion of the cult among Greeks starting in the 140's or 150's.

We may consider in reference what happened to the James Bond character. In 1954, an episode of the America CBS anthology television series called "Climax" featured an American secret service agent named James Bond, played by congenial actor Barry Nelson. It was based on Ian Fleming's first James Bond movie, "Casino Royale" which had come out in 1953.

The show was not a hit and barely noticed by anyone. Apparently the show did well enough that producers engaged Ian Fleming to develop a television series based on the character. The television series never came about, but Fleming wrote some 13 successful books based on the plot outlines he developed for the proposed television series.

In 1962, in making the first James Bond film, Dr. No, producers added a great theme song by Monty Norman, some fabulous sets designed by Ken Adam, and put the young starlet Ursula Andress in a white Bikini for the last 45 minutes of the film. The result was the beginning of the most successful film series in history.

In the same way, the story of the crucified man was moderately successful, but passed unnoticed as a tale in its first incarnation in the 40's, but became a real hit in its revised form in the 140's.

Warmly

Philosopher Jay



Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

aa5874

According to Tacitus, the christian superstition originated in Judaea. It is known that people of Judaea, Jews, or people who followed Mosaic Laws sacrificed animals to their Jewish God.

Now, Pliny claimed the christian superstition was spreading, growing in numbers, this must account for the increased activities of the christians.

Pliny to Trajan Then Pliny described the activities of the superstitious ones called Christians.

Pliny to Trajan

Tyro

No, aa, that interpretation does not make any sense at all. The Jews sacrificed in Jerusalem. Why would Pliny write about JEWISH "established religious rites"? He was no Jew! Would the Christians have their own temples, being "almost deserted"? Would the Jews have multiple temples, being deserted? Why would the Jewish temples have been deserted? This does not make sense. Show me one single translator or scholar interpreting the sentences in the same odd way as you do. What is your interpretation of the last sentence? Pliny describes the activities of Christians by saying that they sang hymns etc., not by saying that temples "have begun to be frequented" - this refers to Roman temples.

Christianity originated in Judaea. This does not mean that the Christians in Pliny's days were practicing Jews, or followed the Jewish rites. Tacitus does NOT say that Jews "STARTED the christian superstition". Judaea is a place, not a people.

"Jesus of the NT and the Jews who followed his christian superstition practised Mosaic Laws which includes sacrifice with animals." - In Jerusalem, not in some unknown temples Pliny knew about for some reason.

You still have no evidence for the notion that Christiani would be some unknown Jewish sect who did not believe in a Jesus. Why would Pliny know or write about Jesus? He says he hasn't been present in the trials against the Christiani. Tacitus apparently knew that the Christians believed in a Christus executed by Pilate. Two DIFFERENT Judaean sects called Christiani/Chrestiani, who believed in a Christus executed during the reign of Pilate? Not probable at all.

Tristan Scott

Perhaps not, but I don't think you can make that conclusion simply based on the fact that this person is not mentioned by Roman writers in the early 2nd century.

I think that is misleading, if we analyze the gospels and the Apochrypha I think you could conclude that the figure Jesus had many followers in the area of Galilee, a relatively backwoods area of Judaea. It also seems clear that there was virtually nothing contemporary written about him, which should not be surprising given that written word was certainly an expensive rarity in 1st c. Galilee where the by far most common mode of communication was word of mouth.

It's really impossible to know any details of the life or death of the figure behind this religion, with only his teachings surviving as an oral tradition any number of truths about his life can be possible, even the name could have been extrapolated from a figure in one of the stories; Jesus the Son of God could have come from Jesus the Son of the Father (Yeshua Barabbas), etc. Regardless, I don't think you can conclude the non-existence of someone in the first c. because someone else didn't mention there name in their writings, especially someone as obscure as the Jesus figure. All you can conclude is there is too little to go on to conclude much of anything.

eheffa

Tyro said:
What evidence do we have that Christianity originated in Judea? It might also have arisen in Alexandria as a Gnostic Logos cult that later became historicized by another Hellenized jew who had never been to Judea (- i.e. the author of the gospel of Mark). The evidence probably favors that possibility over the idea that a local hero was venerated & celebrated by the local Jewish community to the point that he, against all Jewish sensibilities, became a god-man that they worshiped by drinking his blood & eating his body.

Judean origins - not likely.

-evan

aa5874

Once there is no evidence of Jesus in the 1st century, it is reasonable to conclude that there was no Jesus in the 1st century especially when well-known authors make mention of christians and the origin of the christian superstition without making a single reference to Jesus.

The NT may be mis-leading, but the NT and church writings did propagate that Jesus, the offspring of the Holy Ghost, had thousands of followers and was well-known throughout the region.

But, of course, Jesus of the NT is just a story.


I think you may have mis-understood my position. I am not claiming that the NT and church writings about Jesus are true, but merely giving the depiction of Jesus as found in the NT.

Now if there is no evidence of Jesus in the 1st century by sources external of the church writings and the NT, then it can be concluded that Jesus did not exist in that century until evidence becomes available to show that Jesus did exist at that time.

If there is no evidence that "Tristan Scott" posted on this forum, then it can be concluded that "Tristan Scott" did not post here. As soon as evidence is provided to show that "Tristan Scott" did post, then it can be concluded that "Tristan Scott" did.

This is basic.

Tyro

That the superstition originated in Judaea was apparently the opinion of Tacitus in Ann 15:44.

aa5874

I use Justin Martyr to place Jesus the God/man sometime before Simon bar Cocheba, and use Justin again to place the Pauline Christ sometime after the middle of the 2nd century.

Justin Martyr First Apology See www.earlychristianwritings.com

Justin wrote nothing about the Pauline Christ or the Pauline revelations. Justin appears to be completely influenced by the Gospel stories. He appeared to be very familiar with a Gospel that was similar to gMatthew.

This my chronological order of the Christs.

1. First, the Jewish human only Christ, the prophesied ruler of the habitable earth as written in Hebrew scripture, Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.

2. Later, sometime after the writings of Josephus, Jesus, the God/man Christ, the offspring of the Holy Ghost.

3. Sometime after the writings of Justin Martyr, the Pauline Christ, the Revelation Christ was established by writers using the name Paul that abolished once and for all the Mosaic Laws and introduced salvation by faith in Christ. The final Christ. The Christ of the Roman Church.