Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 06-20-2011, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

...

As I already explained to you, "that's a complete misunderstanding. Her whole point is that further research is needed but if confirmed it could be very significant."

....

Nope, no further research is needed to realize that these "primitive" people were engaged in mythmaking and could easily have incorporated Christian-sounding themes into their myths.

And I don't see anything in your link about Acharya S indicating any reservation about accepting these tall tales. I do see some embarrassing comments on race, as if race were a valid scientific concept.

This point is a very minor aspect of Hallet's work with the Pygmies. I don't see that any other source has commented on it. Hallet did enough good work that this could be ignored.

GakuseiDon · 06-20-2011, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hjalti

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Take it any way you like. Who is to say which way is wrong or right? The fundamentalists? Sam Harris? As Harris says, "people who have the courage of their convictions" take it literally.

Now you're just being silly.

:huh: Note that I'm not personally arguing for or against any position. I'm referring to Armstrong's notion of mythos vs logos (which I tend to agree with) and how that informs our reading of ancient myths.

I think we find it far easier to appreciate ancient dead myths in terms of mythos because we don't expect them to be literally true. But we find it much harder to view living myths like the Christ story in terms of mythos, because our mindset is, at this stage, oriented towards logos which is sympathetic towards literal truths.

To my mind, Acharya S comes across as flaky because she is pushing a more mythos view of human history but as literal events. Powerful forces like ancient advanced Pygmies and modern-day sky-people in collusion with the Government influence our destinies. Doherty, who is equally as flaky, is pushing a more logos view sympathetic to how we (today) would expect people to have written back then.

For me, it's about trying to get into the headspace of other cultures. It's the same issue as low-context societies trying to grapple with understanding the intricacies of high-context communication (I lived in Japan for a number of years so appreciate the difficulties there). The Bible writers as high-context New Agey type myth-makers provides a different reading and a different set of expectations than the Bible writers as low-context historians.

Dave31 · 06-20-2011, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Toto "Nope, no further research is needed to realize that these "primitive" people were engaged in mythmaking and could easily have incorporated Christian-sounding themes into their myths.

And I don't see anything in your link about Acharya S indicating any reservation about accepting these tall tales. I do see some embarrassing comments on race, as if race were a valid scientific concept.

This point is a very minor aspect of Hallet's work with the Pygmies. I don't see that any other source has commented on it. Hallet did enough good work that this could be ignored. "

Oh please, there's no reason to believe the Pygmies couldn't have had their own myths long before Christianity. Regarding race, all she said was:

"the Pygmies were a sort of racial "missing link""

Below are some articles of scientific findings from 70,000 years ago in areas where the Pygmies were located.

Quote:

"Python Cave" Reveals Oldest Human Ritual, Scientists Suggest

"A team of archaeologists has discovered what it says is evidence of humankind's oldest ritual. Africa's San people may have used a remote cave for ceremonies of python worship as much as 70,000 years ago—30,000 years earlier than the oldest previously known human rites—the team says."

"And the team unearthed spearheads identical to those found at another site in Botswana, which had been dated to 77,000 years ago."

Quote:

Scientists find first known human ritual

"A startling discovery of 70,000-year-old artifacts and a python's head carved of stone appears to represent the first known human rituals."

Quote:

How a hobbit is rewriting the history of the human race

Sunday 21 February 2010

"The discovery of the bones of tiny primitive people on an Indonesian island six years ago stunned scientists. Now, further research suggests that the little apemen, not Homo erectus, were the first to leave Africa and colonise other parts of the world, reports Robin McKie"

"Thus, ancient African apemen travelled half the world, made homes across Indonesia and, in one case, were washed out to sea to end up colonising a remote island that was already populated with pygmy elephants, called stegadons, and giant Komodo dragons, which are still found on the island. It is a truly fantastic tale, worthy of Rider Haggard, and it has turned the study of human evolution on its head."

John Jackson stated:

Quote:

"The Pygmies believed in a Father-God who was murdered, and a Virgin Mother, who gave birth to a Saviour-God Son, who in turn avenged the death of his father. These later on became the Osiris, Isis and Horus of Egypt. The Pygmy Christ was born of a virgin, died for the salvation of his people, arose from the dead, and finally ascended to heaven. Certainly this looks Christianity before Christ."

- Christianity Before Christ, 175

Dr. Hallet states:

Quote:

"My Pygmy friends have an Adam story of their own. Schebesta has told this tale and emphasized that the Pygmies could not possibly have borrowed it from any outside source. It is the story of a god, a garden paradise, a sacred tree, a noble Pygmy man, who was molded from the dust of the earth, and a wicked Pygmy woman who led him into sin... The legend tells of the ban placed by God upon a single fruit, the woman's urging, the man's reluctance, the original sin, the discovery by God, and the awful punishment he laid upon the Pygmy sinners; the loss of immortality and paradise, the pangs of childbirth, and the curse of hard work."

- Pygmy Kitabu (27)

From Wiki on Pygmy Kitabu:

Quote:

"Pygmy Kitabu is based on the travels of Jean-Pierre Hallet through central Africa from 1948 through 1960 and his extensive interactions with the isolated Efé Pygmies of the Congo. It was first published during 1973, and was cowritten by Alex Pelle.[9] Unlike his prior book, Congo Kitabu, which chronicled his contacts and investigations into multiple groups in the Congo and nearby regions, Pygmy Kitabu is a detailed observational study primarily of the Efe Pygmies. Great detail and scientific observational method was used in the writing of the book.

The Efé Pygmies have been shown to be one of the oldest intact cultures on Earth by dNA studies,[10] and this book is one of the few in-depth works detailing their extraordinary culture.

The book Pygmy Kitabu was reviewed by another expert on Mbuti pygmy culture, Colin Turnbull, and its contribution to knowledge of the pygmy culture acknowledged.[11] It has also been used as a reference in a linguistics textbook.[12] It has been referenced in multiple scholarly books, journals, and symposia.[13][14][15][16]"

I've asked you several times if you have read Dr. Hallet's book. It doesn't seem that you have - the book is designed in large part to show that the Pygmies were not only one of the oldest cultures - which is proved by the DNA - but that they may have originated several important religious concepts. As Acharya and many others have shown, Toto, those are NOT "Christian" ideas AT ALL - that's the whole point of her work, and it's clear that Hallet's long-term, in-depth studies provide more evidence of that thesis.

Hallet lived with the pygmies for SIXTY YEARS on and off. He is a credentialed authority - are you, Toto? If not, I will continue to place my trust in Hallet, not you.

Dave31 · 06-20-2011, 02:51 PM

GakuseiDon, your article about Acharya and the Pygmies is utter lunacy. So, Acharya reports a story from Tibet - she's got it linked there, by the way - that Tibetans themselves claim a race of "little people" had come from the sky and were therefore "sky people." Then - completely separately - Acharya reports the work of a credentialed authority that Pygmies told him they had traveled around the world and had some basic religious ideas. Therefore, according to you, Acharya is saying that Pygmies are aliens? What utter nonsense ... it's just a complete divorce from reality from what she's actually trying to convey there. And that's about the quality of the rest of your silly screed. All this dishonesty and inaccurate foolishness because Acharya hurt your feelings about Jesus - so you raise issues like this Pygmy issue as a distraction fallacy to avoid discussion about your belief in your beloved Jesus - how long are you going to ride this little scooter? .

GakuseiDon · 06-20-2011, 02:58 PM

Dave31, I've been very careful to quote Acharya S from her books and websites. She is the one that associates the sky-people to the remnants of ancient global civilizations, and she is the one who extracts from others the idea that the Pygmies in fact had an ancient global civilization. Do you deny this? Do you not see the possible link there?

Surely you recognise how bizarre it sounds when, on the one hand, you say I am engaged in a smear campaign by raising Acharya S's comments on Pygmies in "The Christ Conspiracy", and on the other hand, you keep bringing up websites that support her comments on Pygmies.

What do YOU personally feel on the topic? Do you think that there is enough evidence out there that the following topics to be worth academics spending time on researching? (You don't have to agree that the topics are already validated, just that Acharya S has brought up enough evidence to show that further research is warranted):

* Pygmies were "pre-Christian monotheists who revered the cross"
* Pygmies believed in a Pygmy Adam, a Pygmy Paradise, and a Pygmy Christ born of a Pygmy Virgin
* Pygmies had an ancient advanced global civilization that spread these ideas throughout the world
* The "sky people" are remnants of an ancient advanced Global civilization and the Government knows more about them than they let on
* The Dropa mummies -- ancient mummies of "little people" -- are real but are being hidden by the Chinese government. There may have been ancient "vinyl record"-like recordings, possibly of their trip from another planet.
* Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods" book and Fort's work provide support for some of Acharya S's theories.

GakuseiDon · 06-20-2011, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Dr. Hallet states:

Quote:

"My Pygmy friends have an Adam story of their own. Schebesta has told this tale and emphasized that the Pygmies could not possibly have borrowed it from any outside source. It is the story of a god, a garden paradise, a sacred tree, a noble Pygmy man, who was molded from the dust of the earth, and a wicked Pygmy woman who led him into sin... The legend tells of the ban placed by God upon a single fruit, the woman's urging, the man's reluctance, the original sin, the discovery by God, and the awful punishment he laid upon the Pygmy sinners; the loss of immortality and paradise, the pangs of childbirth, and the curse of hard work."

- Pygmy Kitabu (27)

Isn't that wonderful? Imagine getting that scoop, and then sitting on it. Rather than being the find of the century, Acharya S puts it as all but a throwaway line in her "Christ Conspiracy" book, never to be referred to again (Dave31, correct me if I am wrong on that); except to smear her, obviously. Or could the powerful Christian hegemony be at work? :constern01: Curse those handsome devils!

IIRC, Dr Hallet's Pygmy friends even located the Pygmy Garden of Paradise as being next to the famous "Mountains of the Moon", source of the Nile River in Africa.

I have a picture of Dr Hallet's Pygmy friends later getting together, and having a bit of a laugh like this (starts at about 30 secs in -- very funny!)

(ETA) If I ever start my own Fortean group, I think I will call it Team "PFDH": The Pygmy Friends of Dr Hallet.

aa5874 · 06-20-2011, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

....To my mind, Acharya S comes across as flaky because she is pushing a more mythos view of human history but as literal events. Powerful forces like ancient advanced Pygmies and modern-day sky-people in collusion with the Government influence our destinies. Doherty, who is equally as flaky, is pushing a more logos view sympathetic to how we would expect people to have written back then....

But, tell us how the authors of gMatthew and gMark comes across.

Tell us how the authors of gLuke and gJohn come across.

Tell us about the authors of Acts and the Pauline writings.

Jesus the Child of the Holy Ghost, the Creator, the Powerful Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost, Talking Clouds, Angels, Transfigurations, Resurrections and Ascensions, and the God of the Jews in collusion with the Roman Emperors INFLUENCE our DESTINIES.

The authors of the NT come across as Ghost story writers or Myth fabricators not writers of human history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gakuseidon

...For me, it's about trying to get into the headspace of other cultures. It's the same issue as low-context societies trying to grapple with understanding the intricacies of high-context communication (I lived in Japan for a number of years so appreciate the difficulties there). The Bible writers as high-context New Agey type myth-makers provides a different reading and a different set of expectations than the Bible writers as low-context historians.

Please tell us how far you have gotten into the headspace of other cultures. You seem to be really trying to get into the headspace of Doherty and Achyara S.

In any event, JESUS must be preparing MANSIONS in SPACE for Pygmies if the author of gJohn was truthful.

Christians and Christian PYGMIES will OCCUPY the same Mansions in SPACE if Jesus did prepare them as he claimed in the Bible.

In gJohn, Jesus the Child of a Ghost, the Creator that ascended to SPACE (heaven) in a CLOUD STATED he was the TRUTH and the LIFE.

There is a SPACE ALIEN (Jesus) who will come back for Christians and Christian Pygmies if the Bible is true.

GakuseiDon · 06-20-2011, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In any event, JESUS must be preparing MANSIONS in SPACE for Pygmies if the author of gJohn was truthful.

:notworthy: As much as I ignore you, aa, I have to say that reading your posts is an occasional guilty pleasure. You crack me up sometimes!

aa5874 · 06-20-2011, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In any event, JESUS must be preparing MANSIONS in SPACE for Pygmies if the author of gJohn was truthful.

:notworthy: As much as I ignore you, aa, I have to say that reading your posts is an occasional guilty pleasure. You crack me up sometimes!

Oh my!!! What Guilt you have!!!

You and Christian Pygmies may become ROOM MATES in SPACE if the author of gJohn was NOT lying.

"In YOUR FATHER'S house there are many mansions...."

Toto · 06-20-2011, 06:21 PM

Review of Pygmy Kitabu by COLIN M. TURNBULL, Virginia Commonwealth University

Quote:

Mr. Hallet’s theme is simple enough: the original Superman was a pygmy, and all that is good in mankind, indeed mankind itself, derives from a pygmean ancestry. However extreme and unsupported such claims may be, the book does suggest certain lines of thought that might profitably be investigated; but in no way can it be used as a springboard for serious further research for it leaves far too much unsaid, including much that Hallet knows perfectly well but chooses to omit.

Much of the trouble that the academic will encounter is due to Hallet’s aggressive, egotistical manner of presentation, rather than to his obvious ignorance of what anthropology is all about because he is, after all, a layman. This is a pity, and the publishers do not help by writing a jacket blurb that lends an air of pseudo-academic authenticity to the book that is belied by the contents and by Hallet’s obvious scorn for the academic world.

...

However, there is no doubting Hallet’s genuine fascination with the pygmies. His experience has been almost exclusively with the Efe in the southeastern corner of the Ituri, Schebesta’s old stamping ground. This is the area most densely peppered with administrative and army posts, mines, missions, schools, and hospitals, yet Hallet claims that “his” pygmies are the purest, closest to the original, and claims they cannot have been subject to outside influences. Consequently he is able to see very obvious similarities between certain “pygmy” legends and biblical accounts as “proof” of the anteriority of the pygmy version. Thus even Christianity is made to derive from the pygmies. Much as I love the pygmies myself, this is too much. And worse, it is so unnecessary. Far better to have recognized the possibility of influence and to have investigated it fully, instead of claiming such total isolation and "purity."

American Anthropologist Volume 77, Issue 2, Article first published online: 19 OCT 2009

You were saying, Dave?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-20-2011, 02:51 PM	#64
Dave31 Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: USA Posts: 425	GakuseiDon, your article about Acharya and the Pygmies is utter lunacy. So, Acharya reports a story from Tibet - she's got it linked there, by the way - that Tibetans themselves claim a race of "little people" had come from the sky and were therefore "sky people." Then - completely separately - Acharya reports the work of a credentialed authority that Pygmies told him they had traveled around the world and had some basic religious ideas. Therefore, according to you, Acharya is saying that Pygmies are aliens? What utter nonsense ... it's just a complete divorce from reality from what she's actually trying to convey there. And that's about the quality of the rest of your silly screed. All this dishonesty and inaccurate foolishness because Acharya hurt your feelings about Jesus - so you raise issues like this Pygmy issue as a distraction fallacy to avoid discussion about your belief in your beloved Jesus - how long are you going to ride this little scooter? .

06-20-2011, 02:58 PM	#65
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	Dave31, I've been very careful to quote Acharya S from her books and websites. She is the one that associates the sky-people to the remnants of ancient global civilizations, and she is the one who extracts from others the idea that the Pygmies in fact had an ancient global civilization. Do you deny this? Do you not see the possible link there? Surely you recognise how bizarre it sounds when, on the one hand, you say I am engaged in a smear campaign by raising Acharya S's comments on Pygmies in "The Christ Conspiracy", and on the other hand, you keep bringing up websites that support her comments on Pygmies. What do YOU personally feel on the topic? Do you think that there is enough evidence out there that the following topics to be worth academics spending time on researching? (You don't have to agree that the topics are already validated, just that Acharya S has brought up enough evidence to show that further research is warranted): * Pygmies were "pre-Christian monotheists who revered the cross" * Pygmies believed in a Pygmy Adam, a Pygmy Paradise, and a Pygmy Christ born of a Pygmy Virgin * Pygmies had an ancient advanced global civilization that spread these ideas throughout the world * The "sky people" are remnants of an ancient advanced Global civilization and the Government knows more about them than they let on * The Dropa mummies -- ancient mummies of "little people" -- are real but are being hidden by the Chinese government. There may have been ancient "vinyl record"-like recordings, possibly of their trip from another planet. * Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods" book and Fort's work provide support for some of Acharya S's theories.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.