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Old 04-25-2012, 05:54 PM   #211
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But Aramaic supports authenticity better than MJ claims that Latinisms in gMark proved it originated in Rome or that not just the gospels, but their sources, were originally written in Greek. But the point at issue here is whether Ehrman published a howler in saying we have Aramaic sources of the gospels dating back to the 30's. What he said was not consensus scholarship, but it is supported by Maurice Casey and James Crossley.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:59 PM   #212
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The Bible Geek for April 24 - Robert M Price describes Ehrman and Hoffman as the "paradigm police," protecting their field from amateurs.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:12 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Steven Carr
Ehrman couldn’t even be bothered to check which letter by Pliny mentioned Christians.

Scholars already know which letter it is.

But the book wasn’t written for them.

Scholars know that Ehrman’s invisible documents that he waved around as evidence for the existence of Jesus don’t actually exist.

But the book wasn’t written for them.

CARRIER
We don’t in fact have those sources, we aren’t even sure they exist, and even if we were, we have no way of knowing what they said.

CARR
Come on Richard, the book wasn’t written for you.

What do you expect scholarship? Stop saying that we don’t have those sources. The book wasn’t written for you.

Sheesh, Richard. Your expectations were way too high.
On the Pliny letter, Carrier's critique was more substantive than just a citation error as Ehrman makes it out to be. I fully agree that Carrier overstated his critique on these minor points. His major points stand, but are lost on Ehrman's rah rah crowd.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:12 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
But Aramaic supports authenticity better than MJ claims that Latinisms in gMark proved it originated in Rome or that not just the gospels, but their sources, were originally written in Greek. But the point at issue here is whether Ehrman published a howler in saying we have Aramaic sources of the gospels dating back to the 30's. What he said was not consensus scholarship, but it is supported by Maurice Casey and James Crossley.
My point is there were likely versions of the stories in various languages over many generations (ie. over many decades if not centuries), as well as various versions of the stories, as shown by all the apocryphal gospels. That some of gMark was, at some preliminary or intermediate stage, in Aramaic does not prove anything other than the story, or a version of it, was in several languages.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:22 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Adam
But Aramaic supports authenticity better than MJ claims that Latinisms in gMark proved it originated in Rome or that not just the gospels, but their sources, were originally written in Greek. But the point at issue here is whether Ehrman published a howler in saying we have Aramaic sources of the gospels dating back to the 30's. What he said was not consensus scholarship, but it is supported by Maurice Casey and James Crossley.
What makes it a 'howler' is that it is clearly a minority view, which Ehrman does not clearly state, IIRC. And then, on top of that uses these aramaisms as evidence to support his HJ hypothesis EVEN THOUGH these phrases are found in clearly fictional accounts. That is what makes this whole argument a howler.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:31 PM   #216
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But Grog,
I just refuted this in this thread in #209, itself a restatement of #113 in this thread. Do you have me on ignore for a while? So many here have seen that no one can refute me, so they put me on ignore. The "Gospel According to the Atheists" has nothing that makes it a "clearly fictional account".
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:51 AM   #217
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Understatement of the year !

Best,
Jiri
I was amazed to see an English translation of his newest (I think) book in the Amazon Kindle store for $3.70 US. Since I haven't been able to read anything of his yet, I scarfed it up. It will be interesting to see what he has to say. I did google translate his reply/review of Ehrman, but it wasn't the best. I did get the basics of it, I think, and it was interesting.
Thanks for the heads up of the availability of this. Is it substantially different than what is already translated in PDF on his site?
I don't know - I just found the site when Ehrman's book came out, and haven't started reading my newest purcahse (reading Carriers Not the Impossible Faith now).
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:43 PM   #218
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Richard Carrier has responded to Ehrman's response to Carrier's review:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/1117

Carrier spends quite a bit of time on Priapusgate, or "The Priapus Affair", as Carrier puts it. Carrier explains the importance of Ehrman's remarks on the statue:
,,, even granting his excuse, the fact that the wording is completely misleading and will misinform the public still confirms my point in citing this example, that we can’t trust his book. If he so badly miswrote here that he meant the opposite of what he said, then how many other sentences in this book are as badly written and mean the opposite of what they say? ... he is not even capable of detecting when a sentence he has written says the opposite of what he meant. That entails we should trust his book even less. Because whatever filter is supposed to prevent him making these kind of mistakes is clearly not working in his brain.
His article is fairly long, but I'll give some quotes:
Ehrman does appear to want to hide the substantive errors and mistakes and fallacies I document, and one strategy he uses to do that is to deflect it all by reframing the debate as being about personal attacks and my being mean to him (when he was so nice to me)...

In his second reply he addressed one single point in my review. And here I believe there is reason to suspect he is lying about the Priapus statue. In my review of his book I called him out for saying (certainly very clearly implying) that Murdock “made up” the statue at the Vatican that she presents a drawing of and says is a symbol of Peter. He clearly did not call the Vatican about it or research the claim at all. Because if he had, he would have said what any responsible scholar would have said, which is that yes, the statue she depicts is real and the drawing she provides is reasonably accurate, but her argument that it symbolizes Peter is not credible. It’s just a pagan statue of the god Priapus...

Now in his reply on this point, in “Acharya S, Richard Carrier, and a Cocky Peter (Or: “A Cock and Bull Story”),” he claims I misread him, that he never denied the statue existed nor implied that Murdock made it up. Now let’s look at what he actually wrote in the book. You be the judge:
[Acharya says] “‘Peter’ is not only ‘the rock’ but also ‘the cock’, or penis, as the word is used as slang to this day.” Here Acharya shows (her own?) hand drawing of a man with a rooster head but with a large erect penis instead of a nose, with this description: “bronze sculpture hidden in the Vatican treasure of the Cock, symbol of St. Peter” (295). There is no penis-nosed statue of Peter the cock in the Vatican or anywhere else except in books like this, which love to make things up.
That’s the sum total of what he says about this. It is quite evident to me that when he wrote this, he doubted the drawing came from any source, and believed (and here implies to the reader) that she just made it up. There is no such statue. That is what he is saying...

And of course he now claims that he never said the statue didn’t exist. He only said a statue of Peter didn’t exist. That’s right. He parses his words hyper-literally to argue that he said the exact opposite of what he said. You see, when he said the statue didn’t exist, that it was made up, he meant a statue of Peter, and since the statue that Murdock references and presents a drawing of isn’t a statue “of Peter,” the statue doesn’t exist. Get it?...

It’s bad enough that, even if this is true and he really meant to say the opposite of what he appears to say, he obviously wrote it so badly he not only sucks as a writer but can’t even tell that he sucks as a writer (indeed only after repeated goading in comments did he confess that “maybe I should have phrased it differently”). But trying to use the “I suck as a writer” defense against the much worse crime of careless scholarship requires him to claim the masked man fallacy isn’t a fallacy but a perfectly reasonable way to argue. Which only convicts him (yet again) of not understanding how logic works.

Before I get to the punchline, I really must emphasize this point: even granting his excuse, the fact that the wording is completely misleading and will misinform the public still confirms my point in citing this example, that we can’t trust his book. If he so badly miswrote here that he meant the opposite of what he said, then how many other sentences in this book are as badly written and mean the opposite of what they say? Indeed, that he had to be repeatedly goaded before even admitting that this sentence does that, means he is not even capable of detecting when a sentence he has written says the opposite of what he meant. That entails we should trust his book even less. Because whatever filter is supposed to prevent him making these kind of mistakes is clearly not working in his brain...

I don’t actually believe him when he says he didn’t mean to say the statue didn’t exist. I suspect that is a post-hoc rationalization that he cooked up in an attempt to save face, after his careless and irresponsible scholarship on this matter was exposed.
Carrier makes many more points, so best that you read the article in entirety.
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:36 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by GakuseiDon View Post
Richard Carrier has responded to Ehrman's response to Carrier's review:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/1117
Carrier does some new damage under the heading "The Thompson Affair". The discussion of "The Priapus Affair" basically drives home what was already obvious. Those are the highlights.

On a side note, does anyone else find Carrier's prose extremely repetitious? It reminds me of 1 Clement, actually, where it seems like almost every chapter quotes a large chunk of the OT and ends with "forever and ever. Amen."

Joseph
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:56 PM   #220
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Carrier does some new damage under the heading "The Thompson Affair". The discussion of "The Priapus Affair" basically drives home what was already obvious.
Actually, I agree with both sentiments, but probably not the way you do.

What is the new damage done under the heading "The Thompson Affair" in your view? Is it to Ehrman's credibility as a scholar, or to Ehrman's actual arguments regarding mythicism?
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