Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 06-15-2007, 08:38 AM

http://homepage.mac.com/lpetrich/Cre.../BatsBirds.svg

Is this an error in God's word?

John Kesler · 06-15-2007, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

http://homepage.mac.com/lpetrich/Cre.../BatsBirds.svg

Is this an error in God's word?

It's not an "error" that I would cite, because the ancient Israelites may have used a taxonomic system in which all winged animals were classified as "birds." For what I consider to be a more sustainable example of error in Leviticus 11, see this thread.

Clivedurdle · 06-15-2007, 09:22 AM

Quote:

the ancient Israelites may have used a taxonomic system in which all winged animals were classified as "birds."

Agreed, but strange words like inerrant and infallible get bandied about, sometimes with sub clauses about theological significance.

http://www.billygraham.org/StatementOfFaith.asp

How can you trust something with your eternal salvation that does not know birds and bats are different?

Quote:

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association believes:

• The Bible to be the infallible Word of God, that it is His holy and inspired Word, and that it is of supreme and final authority.

Clivedurdle · 06-15-2007, 09:32 AM

Might these interesting taxonomical understandings be used to date these writings? What natural history texts were around when and where that contained similar ideas?

John Kesler · 06-15-2007, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

How can you trust something with your eternal salvation that does not know birds and bats are different?

Classifying animals based upon shared characteristics does not preclude awareness of differences.

Clouseau · 06-15-2007, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

http://homepage.mac.com/lpetrich/Cre.../BatsBirds.svg

Is this an error in God's word?

It's a translational error. Lev 11:13 should read:

"'These are the flying creatures you are to detest and not eat...'"

The word used for 'birds' means 'anything that flies'; 'fliers'.

Merlin · 06-15-2007, 11:52 AM

Right.
In Hebrew it would be more of 'flyers', a flying creature.
'bird' is a english translation thing.

Clivedurdle · 06-15-2007, 12:03 PM

Are you saying translators are as inept as to allow a bat in a list of birds by mistranslating the word for bird?

Toto · 06-15-2007, 12:13 PM

Bats technically do not fly - they glide. Are their appendages even counted as wings?

Another apologist has a more complex take on this passage:

Quote:

[Greg Hartman's Answer]

There are three references to bats in the Bible -- Lev. 11:19, Deut. 14:18, and Isa. 2:20. The latter reference mentions bats by themselves, so it is probably not the "mistake" you have in mind. The first two, however, mention bats in lists with birds. I'll take a wild stab here and guess you're calling it a mistake to list bats with birds. Fair enough; I can offer two answers to that, the first of which is not satisfactory, but the second of which is:

1. In Deuteronomy the Hebrew word ôwph is used to define the list of vertebrates (KJV renders it "fowls"). This word means, literally, "to cover with wings" or "winged creature." I could argue that such a word could encompass bats as well as birds, but this is not a satisfactory argument, for two reasons:

It still makes the error you're talking about by classifying bats with birds, and ·Deuteronomy 14:18's enharmonic reference, Lev. 11:19, uses the Hebrew word tsippôn, which means "bird" in no uncertain terms. Thus we must conclude, in harmonizing the two references, that the specific term "bird" (tsippôn ) in Leviticus, by the law of harmonics and the law of first-mention, instructs us to interpret the generic term "winged creature" (ôwph ) in Deuteronomy as "bird" (and it is so rendered in the NIV and most other translations).

Therefore, we are left with the certainty that both lists should be classified as lists of birds, and not just lists of generic "winged creatures." This leads us to the second answer:

2. Since we know we are definitely talking about a list of birds, how can we account for the presence of the bat here? The word rendered "bat" is the Hebrew 'atallêph. This word, like several others in the same list, is of uncertain origin (don't take my word for it; look at the footnotes of the NIV for Lev. 11:20, which ends the list, and it will tell you that the precise identity of several animals in the list are uncertain). The Hebrew lexicon's definition for 'atallêph says the same thing ("of uncertain derivation").

What I'm saying is this: we simply do not know exactly what vertebrate is being described here, or in several other instances in the same passage.
...

Clivedurdle · 06-15-2007, 12:32 PM

Quote:

by the law of harmonics and the law of first-mention, instructs us

I don't know what that is about, but it does look like NIV is correct in using birds. Whether or not the final word means bat is then a question of probability - what else might it mean?

And it would help if people did not read into a list later knowledge - it does not matter if someone 2500 years ago puts a bat in a list of birds - it is actually interesting because it allows study of how people understood things.

Again, what other natural history lists do we have from other cultures? Might this list have been borrowed from Egypt or Persia or even Greece or early Rome or Carthage? Might Leviticus be later than we assume?

06-15-2007, 08:38 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Levitius 11 13 - 19 http://homepage.mac.com/lpetrich/Cre.../BatsBirds.svg Is this an error in God's word?

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06-15-2007, 09:32 AM	#4
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Might these interesting taxonomical understandings be used to date these writings? What natural history texts were around when and where that contained similar ideas?

06-15-2007, 11:52 AM	#7
Merlin Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Avalon Island Posts: 282	Right. In Hebrew it would be more of 'flyers', a flying creature. 'bird' is a english translation thing.

06-15-2007, 12:03 PM	#8
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Are you saying translators are as inept as to allow a bat in a list of birds by mistranslating the word for bird?

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