Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WVIncagold · 08-25-2008, 09:54 AM

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Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

Sin is whatever a ruling class of religious ideolouges imposess on the flock in order to make them feel bad about themselves so that they the maintain control of the flock.
here is a list of sins
1. ABORTION
Ex 21:22-25; Jere 1:4,5

.....

667. YOUNGER, NOT SUBMITTING TO THE ELDER
1 Pe 5:5

Or, simply, love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength; love your neighbour as yourself. It's the same thing. We can't perfectly do either the long list you give or the abridged version. It's because we are sinful.

Thank God there is a way out of this!

Yup all it took was hanging his own son out for dead. now we all git to go on up to da big house!
Nice job of hand waving over 600 yes 600 sins that keep you out of the big house with the gold el Camino in the front yard and the never ending bug zapper.
The entire list was meant to show the irrational part of sin and the ever increasing act of trying to get other people to do the shit you want them to do through guilt.
So since there is no way you can ever EVER fit your life into the extremes of the bible then and since we are all with sin, why bother sending bubba jebus why not just make sins forgiven? why a 600 sin list for people to not follow? its nonsense made to make you feel shameful of who you are thats all.

bacht · 08-25-2008, 10:34 AM

my two coppers...

sin = error = suffering and death

law = knowledge of sin and righteousness = better life

---

wasn't Paradise a fancy garden in Persia somewhere?

sschlichter · 08-25-2008, 11:06 AM

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Originally Posted by ThinkingMan

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Romans 1 - 3 is a pretty clear explanation of sin. Paul describes all as sinners, all fall short, atheist, religious, those that have the law, those that do not, those that pray, those that do not, are all falling short of what God intended. It summarizes at 3:9-3:23.

It then goes on to explain how righteousness can be credited to those that are not righteous (everyone) through Christ's perfect righteousness starting at 3:24.

There are lists, but the Bible teaches that sin is a condition that effects all of us. The lists are referring to symptoms of that condition typically. Christ taught that looking at a women lustfully was adultery and hating was killing, which means that all men commit adultery (for example), so it's inclusion in any list should be damning to everyone that is telling the truth to themselves.

About a dozen people will jump on this reply with all sorts of expletives but I am just trying to answer the question of what the Bible says about sin.

You do a good job presenting your position without beating us over the head with it. You say that all people fall short of god's intentions. A secular way of stating this would be to say that a person can always improve their personal morals, limit their shortcomings, and exert control over their vices. I think I can appreciate this truth as well as you without a spiritual framework.

You mention righteousness. Righteousness is measured by how closely we adhere to our set of morals. Religious people try to enforce a particular set of morals based on their own sect's interpretation of scripture. Atheists each have their own subjective set of morals, but we don't see them as being any more subjective than those of religious people. Think about this: if you are trying to be righteous then you are really just trying to adopt a set of morals for yourself. This requires willpower. Sin is not a physical entity that infects us: it is the vices we are prone to. What infects us is a lack of willpower. This is the cause of your "symptoms". Focusing on a list of vices would be addressing the symptoms, but improving your personal willpower would be addressing the cause.

My objection, however, is that I don't think that mere faith will improve my willpower/righteousness. I can improve my willpower with training and perhaps a friend who would support me. Deceiving myself into believing that I don't have to do anything other than accept the power of Jesus to change my behavior won't get me any closer to overcoming my own shortcomings.

I think you have really highlighted the difference between Christianity and other religions. Christianity is a religion for those who know they cannot adhere to their set of morals. (the object of faith for a Christian is to give up and rely solely on righteousness from Christ's perfect life instead of trying to become righteous on my own merit.) I.e. Christianity is for bad people, not people that think they are good.

Handling sin in this way, to me is analogous to having AIDS. I can put make-up on the skin lesions, but it does not change the condition. it looks better to others which may make you feel better but still is fatal. you may even convince yourself that you do not have AIDS this way.

This is where God's demand of perfection comes in. He demands perfection but he also supplies it thru Christ. If Christ was only a man, he could only die for one other person, but as God, his righteousness can cover all. The law in most nations is that you cannot murder. You have to adhere to that law perfectly. If you only murder once, you cannot tell the judge, "I did not murder before and I will try not to murder again." No, it requires perfection.

The notion that faith (accepting Jesus) is a mere mental ascension is a false one. It is likely the fault of Christians that you have this notion. In actuality, the message of Christianity is that you place your trust in the work of Christ for salvation but you also turn your life over to him for service and obedience. Book of James says it will look like this. (Jam 1:27) Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their misfortune and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

We Christians are all about the mental ascension of belief but we fail miserably at following Christ - I freely admit that. True faith yields commitment. (or it is likely not faith). I agree with you that a mere mental ascension will not increase your will or ability to please God, but faith that yields commitment will.

~steve

Chili · 08-25-2008, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangelical

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Huh?

Jn.19:7 "We [Jews] have our own law and by that law he must die . . . .

Let me add here that Jesus deserved to die and that was the best thing the Jews ever did, . . . by far.

Your use of John 19:7 is a text book illustration of why nonbelievers think they can find contradictions in the Bible. In a word, you've taken the verse out of context.

No true at all! Pilate was not a Jew and could see nothing wrong with the man (repeated in John 18:29 and 38) to say that there was nothing wrong with the man . . . wherefore the Jews looked at the burden Jesus carried in his dual nature (we call it the cross) of which Pilate was not aware.

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The law that Jesus "broke" was blasphemy. Blasphemy is when one who is not God claims to be God. Jesus claimed to be God, it is true, but He actually was (and is) God. He proved that He was God by the Resurrection. What is more, other verses of the Bible make it clear that the people were looking for an excuse to put Him to death. In other words, the whole context is one of trumped up charges in a kangaroo court.

Jews would never know that Jesus was God or they would not be Jews but Christians. Not an excuse but to die our first death prior to our second death is our first and most basic human right that should be defended at all cost and is the duty of the elders (chief priests) in religion.

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Your final comment, I find myself agreeing with, with qualification. I would say that it was not so much the Jews who were responsible for the death of Jesus, or the Romans, but I myself. Yet in spite of the tragedy of the cross, the greatest thing of all was made possible. That is, way of salvation has been opened up to me (and you, if you shall accept the free gift). It is only by His grace that men and women can stand.

The cross was a comedy and still is a comedy if you walk away from it instead of dying at the foot of the cross with the burning desire to be raised.

Jewish law convicted (as it should) and the faculty of reason crucified (as it should) so that we can walk away from it instead of trying to convert the rest of the world until we die . . . nonetheless.

Chili · 08-25-2008, 08:38 PM

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Originally Posted by spamandham

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Originally Posted by evangelical

The law that Jesus "broke" was blasphemy.

Blasphemy was not the reason Jesus was crucified. He was crucified because he pissed off the Pharisees by disrespecting the Sabbath (see Mark 3:1-6). They began plotting his death at that point. By the time he was arrested, he was already a marked man. It didn't matter what he said, they were going to execute him.

How can you claim to know there are no contradictions, when you don't even understand the stories?

So why do you think he said "it is finished" if pissing off the Pharisees is not part of it? (hint, try crucifying yourself once

.

Joan of Bark · 08-25-2008, 11:25 PM

Quote:

This is where God's demand of perfection comes in. He demands perfection but he also supplies it thru Christ. If Christ was only a man, he could only die for one other person, but as God, his righteousness can cover all

How many times do I have to repeat this verse???

Mark 10:18

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

Of course, God might get better results from us imperfect humans if he set a better example himself. Anyone who kills three thousand children a day with a disease like malaria can hardly take the moral high ground.

Helpmabob · 08-26-2008, 02:46 AM

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Originally Posted by WVIncagold

…why not just make sins forgiven? …

It’s a good question, and potentially a deep theological one. If you drop a glass and it smashes to smithereens, you sweep the remains into the bin. You don’t just make it to be unbroken. If you try and glue it back together, it still won’t be perfect. Someone needs to pay for the damage. Sin is real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

How many times do I have to repeat this verse???

Mark 10:18: "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

Read in context, this was Jesus’ response to a very proud young rich man who really thought he had followed all the commandments since he was a boy. The man regarded Jesus as nothing more than a teacher, and he was relying on his own good works to earn him to eternal life. He wanted Jesus to confirm his righteous position, but Jesus knew his motives. Jesus shatters the man’s misconceptions about how good he is. He has vast riches, which he will not share with the poor.

Some people knew He was more than a teacher, but others, such as this young rich man, would seemingly never admit this under any circumstances.

Chili · 08-26-2008, 05:03 AM

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Sin is real.

Sin is an illusion but the effect is real. The concept sin was given to Moses towards the conviction of sin that the orgy may go on but not for free. So here we can say thay Moses was pimping the concept sin towards a greater good (much like fishing bait is used to catch the big one) that here is the sin-nature of man to be reeled in and crucified in Galilee (we call it Purgatory).

Hmmmmmm, indulgences anyone?

sschlichter · 08-26-2008, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

How many times do I have to repeat this verse???

Mark 10:18

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

Perhaps you should keep repeating it to yourself until you understand what it means.

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Of course, God might get better results from us imperfect humans if he set a better example himself. Anyone who kills three thousand children a day with a disease like malaria can hardly take the moral high ground.

[/quote]

God may allow bad things to happen but he does not wish them so.

WVIncagold · 08-26-2008, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

It’s a good question, and potentially a deep theological one. If you drop a glass and it smashes to smithereens, you sweep the remains into the bin. You don’t just make it to be unbroken. If you try and glue it back together, it still won’t be perfect. Someone needs to pay for the damage. Sin is real.

Sin is bullshit made up by those trying to force their will on other people. How is eating shellfish a sin? Why should we stone your wife or children for wearing mixed textiles? And how about the fact that the sabbath does not occur on Sunday but on Saturday and every Xian group i am aware of do not worship on the sabbath? it is nonsense. I suggest you travel down the entire 600 and see just how pious you are NOT. only 144000 of you get to go to heaven anyhow so its only those who can adhere to those 600 and not sin. Basically your fucked simply by being born into the modern world and they drape a polyester blanket over your cotton jammies.

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08-25-2008, 10:34 AM	#42
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	my two coppers... sin = error = suffering and death law = knowledge of sin and righteousness = better life --- wasn't Paradise a fancy garden in Persia somewhere?

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