Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dean Anderson · 03-31-2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

Well, it's debatable (what isn't?)... Jesus does say that he and the father are one but this may merely imply agreement.

Given that he uses exactly the same phraseology to say that his followers and God should be one just as he and God are (see John 17:11, 17:21-22), there is no justification for interpreting this idiom (of "being one") as an indication that he is saying that he is God.

Soul Invictus · 03-31-2006, 11:56 AM

I started two threads that seemed to tie into what you're asking. Hopefully they help:

Greek distinction between "God" and "Lord

and

2 John 1:7 translation assistance

Let me know what you think of those discussions.

Buster Daily · 03-31-2006, 11:56 AM

Let us not forget that it is incorrect to think of the Bible or the New Testament as a single book (unless, of course, you are an inerrantist and you believe that God is the author of all of the books of the Christian bible.)

If, on the other hand, you think of the Christian bible as a collection of human books with human authors, every statement about the nature of Jesus or God the father must be prefaced with the author of a book or the holder of a particular view eg "According to Mark..." or "According to Fundamentalist Christians..." It is incorrect to make statements about the nature of Jesus that pull from multiple biblical sources prefaced with, "According to the Bible..." Doing so implies scriptural harmony that there is no reason to believe is present.

On the other hand, the purpose of this thread is to discuss what Christians believe so, I suppose, it is okay to go on the Christian assumption of scriptural harmony in order to point out theological contradictions.

Hallandale · 03-31-2006, 12:40 PM

Matthew 16:15-16
15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Notice that Peter didn't say you are God.

Look at Matthew 16:22
22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You."

If Peter thought Jesus was God, you have to think that he has a lot of chutzpah to rebuke God.

Nick Hallandale
enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

michael wellenberg · 03-31-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster Daily

On the other hand, the purpose of this thread is to discuss what Christians believe ...

Is this so ? I got the impression that the issue was started with the Evangelists´view of Jesus.

michael wellenberg · 03-31-2006, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallandale

Matthew 16:15-16
15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Notice that Peter didn't say you are God.

And, according to Mark (8:29), he said not even this, only "You are the Christ !"

Buster Daily · 03-31-2006, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael wellenberg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster Daily

On the other hand, the purpose of this thread is to discuss what Christians believe ...

Is this so ? I got the impression that the issue was started with the Evangelists´view of Jesus.

This was the original post. Why do you disagree with my characterization? By evangelist do you mean the Gospel authors?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Am I right on this, oh biblical experts?
It is a basic tenet of the Christian faith that Jesus is God.
Jesus never said that he is God.
Jesus said that the highest commandment is that God is one, or something along those lines.
Therefore to believe that Jesus is God violates Jesus' own words.
?

Hallandale · 03-31-2006, 03:18 PM

At Mark 12:28 a Scribe asks Jesus.....
"""What commandment is the foremost of all?"
And Jesus answered the Scribe.....
""""The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;"""
And the Scribe answered Jesus..........
"" "Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that HE IS ONE, AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE BESIDES HIM;"""

Now you have to do a little thinking.
What do you think the Scribe was talking about?
Was he saying that God is three persons, and the father is God, and the son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there is only one God?
Or was the Scribe talking about the traditional Jewish belief that God is one and one alone and there is no other God?

The point is that if the Scribe was wrong Jesus had an obligation according to Jewish practices to correct the error of the Scribe.

But what does Jesus say to the Scribe?.....
"""You are not far from the kingdom of God." ""

Jesus praises the Scribe.
He does not correct the Scribe.
Obviously he endoses the Scribe's monotheistic view of God.

So Jesus by his own testimony is saying that he is not God.

Nick Hallandale
enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

The Whiffle Man · 03-31-2006, 04:12 PM

2 things

1) as regards to how many Christians believe in the trinity, it depends on what you consider "Christian". Until liberal Christianity came along, it was most certainly the majority belief of Orthodox, Catholic, and then Protestant Christianity. The vast majority.

2) The trinity, as far as my understanding goes, is technically not a contradiction. God is not one in the same way that he is three. The common saying is that God is one "what" and three "whos". It's more of a paradox.

See here for a full explanation and defense from an evangelical group.
http://www.equip.org/free/DT160.htm

Kevin

Malachi151 · 03-31-2006, 06:58 PM

This explains the trinity:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/arianism.html

You can't understand the trinity concept without understanding the historical context of its development.

03-31-2006, 04:12 PM	#19
The Whiffle Man Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: US Posts: 144	Trinity 2 things 1) as regards to how many Christians believe in the trinity, it depends on what you consider "Christian". Until liberal Christianity came along, it was most certainly the majority belief of Orthodox, Catholic, and then Protestant Christianity. The vast majority. 2) The trinity, as far as my understanding goes, is technically not a contradiction. God is not one in the same way that he is three. The common saying is that God is one "what" and three "whos". It's more of a paradox. See here for a full explanation and defense from an evangelical group. http://www.equip.org/free/DT160.htm Kevin

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03-31-2006, 11:56 AM	#12
Soul Invictus Contributor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 15,576	I started two threads that seemed to tie into what you're asking. Hopefully they help: Greek distinction between "God" and "Lord and 2 John 1:7 translation assistance Let me know what you think of those discussions.

03-31-2006, 11:56 AM	#13
Buster Daily Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 119	Let us not forget that it is incorrect to think of the Bible or the New Testament as a single book (unless, of course, you are an inerrantist and you believe that God is the author of all of the books of the Christian bible.) If, on the other hand, you think of the Christian bible as a collection of human books with human authors, every statement about the nature of Jesus or God the father must be prefaced with the author of a book or the holder of a particular view eg "According to Mark..." or "According to Fundamentalist Christians..." It is incorrect to make statements about the nature of Jesus that pull from multiple biblical sources prefaced with, "According to the Bible..." Doing so implies scriptural harmony that there is no reason to believe is present. On the other hand, the purpose of this thread is to discuss what Christians believe so, I suppose, it is okay to go on the Christian assumption of scriptural harmony in order to point out theological contradictions.

03-31-2006, 12:40 PM	#14
Hallandale Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Fort Pierce Florida Posts: 52	Matthew 16:15-16 15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Notice that Peter didn't say you are God. Look at Matthew 16:22 22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You." If Peter thought Jesus was God, you have to think that he has a lot of chutzpah to rebuke God. Nick Hallandale enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

03-31-2006, 03:18 PM	#18
Hallandale Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Fort Pierce Florida Posts: 52	At Mark 12:28 a Scribe asks Jesus..... """What commandment is the foremost of all?" And Jesus answered the Scribe..... """"The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;""" And the Scribe answered Jesus.......... "" "Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that HE IS ONE, AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE BESIDES HIM;""" Now you have to do a little thinking. What do you think the Scribe was talking about? Was he saying that God is three persons, and the father is God, and the son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there is only one God? Or was the Scribe talking about the traditional Jewish belief that God is one and one alone and there is no other God? The point is that if the Scribe was wrong Jesus had an obligation according to Jewish practices to correct the error of the Scribe. But what does Jesus say to the Scribe?..... """You are not far from the kingdom of God." "" Jesus praises the Scribe. He does not correct the Scribe. Obviously he endoses the Scribe's monotheistic view of God. So Jesus by his own testimony is saying that he is not God. Nick Hallandale enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

03-31-2006, 06:58 PM	#20
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	This explains the trinity: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/arianism.html You can't understand the trinity concept without understanding the historical context of its development.

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