Solo

I think you are overdoing it, Gerard. It does not look like sexuality was emphasized, or obssessive, in the god-human commingling, except in special cases (like Semele). Atia cleans herself but one does not need to read compulsion into that or proof that real physical act took place; it could be that the ablution means to emphasize that she was a "marked woman".

Perpetual virginity, as pointed out, was a late development in the Church doctrine.

How would you support this, Gerard ?

Jiri

jgibson000

By sources, I meant primary sources. All you've done here is to restate your claims and point to a paraphraser.

I think you are mistaken if you believe Hera (as the protector of marriage) was enforcing marital fidelity as such.

What else was she doing?

Why? IIt does not follow from the (alleged) fact that she (alegedly) didn't do something all the time, that she had no desire to enforce marital fidelity or that her dealing with Semele was not motivate4d by that desire.

And "scores"? May we again have some primary sources for Zeus "scoring" with scores of maidens?

.

Are you certain of this? I wonder if Io would agree?

In any case, note that the the original issue was not whether or not marital fidelity was enforced by Hera or anyone. Rather it was whether a married god's having it off with a mortal woman "was considered extramarital sex."

I'd be grateful if, in trying to make your case, you didn't shift the ground on which it is based in order to do so.

JG

gstafleu

It was neither over- nor under-emphasized. Sexual intercourse with a god was just that: sexual intercourse. After it the woman was no longer a virgin. Consider the story of Callisto (I realize she was a nymph, not a mortal). Callisto was part of Diana's entourage. Jupiter rapes her and Callisto gets pregnant (with Arcas), and when Diana discovers that she kicks Callisto out of her entourage. All this depicts sexual intercourse with a god as just normal sex. Not something miraculous where the woman maintained her virginity after sex.

Which brings us to the whole question of: do the birth narratives of Jesus indeed say that Maria was a virgin?

Good question. I'm assuming here that the birth narratives do indeed say that Maria was a virgin, something that is not certain, I think. Right now it is not more than an idea, trying to answer the question: whence all of a sudden that virginity? We can see a tradition of miraculous conception, but it is not clear that virginity-after-sex is part of that. You offer an alternative explanation by basically equating virtue with virginity. Even if you are right and we see the virtue motive in enough of the miraculous conception stories, then I'm still not convinced of that equation.

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu

Why does it have to be primary sources? Do you want us to read though the whole of Metamorphoses and do a count? I would suggest secondary sources count as well, while realizing the assumption of some else having done his or her homework. This said, here is a secondary source: The Consorts and Children of Zeus. Note the remark at the bottom of the page "This is only a small part of Zeus' many lovers and their offspring. The number of his consorts, and nymphs he abducted and fathered children on, is well over a hundred." So, lacking a research project, Jiri may have a point.

Gerard Stafleu

Ben C Smith

The virgin birth could also echo the familiar OT story of the barren woman suddenly having a child, but taken to the nth degree. (In both cases a womb which was supposed to be infertile happens to become fertile.)

Ben.

Solo

You slay me, Ben..... :rolling:

Jiri

Solo

No, it was always a mytho-poetic hyperbole.

I suppose even in antiquity there were "literalists" who denied the existence of poetic metaphors.

Yes, they do, if that is your "whole question". Obviously, to me the crucial questions are different, like, what do you mean she conceived as a virgin ? What did that mean in the time and place ? What would that reference in the world of the writer ?

All of a sudden ? You did see my references above I gave to Jeffrey, I suppose.

Jiri

Solo

Objection noted.

Engaging in a jealous pique with max empowerment.

No, it does not follow, nor did I say it follows. But if Zeus molests and/or impregnates scores of maidens and Hera kills but one, and it happens to be the one who really turns him on, and Hera does it by turning her on, I would say jealousy was the motive.

No, you may not. First of all, you did not ask me the first time for "primary sources", so you are not entitled to say "again". Second, I did not say Zeus was "scoring", so I would not know what I would be referencing. Third, I think you are in bad faith trying to deny that you know Zeus was traditioned as a prodigious lover.

Almost forgot about Io....there were so many. Well, maybe Hera did not kill Io because she was not a threat. There was no issue and since Zeus gave her up, Hera even restored her beauty (at least in Ovid's version of the tale).

To which I say it is not extramarital sex but a poetic hyperbole. But if memory serves, the original issue of this OP was whether the concept of virgin birth was "derived" from pagan myth.

You had some vehement objections to the original issue of the thread, but never spelled them out. What were they, Jeffrey ? What do you find so offensive about the idea that "Matthew" or his sources may have actually been informed by pagan myth ?

Jiri

GakuseiDon

Thanks, Jeffrey and Ben, on the anti-imperial propaganda information. Very interesting!

gstafleu

True, it could be that...