Freethought & Rationalism Archive

exi · 10-15-2003, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen T-B
Whether its a ship�s rope or a camel going through the eye of a needle, or a camel going through a very narrow gate, it seems fairly obvious that �Jesus� or the preachers who inspired the Jesus myth, didn�t think much of the rich.
This seems to be an element of Christ�s teachings which Christians have paid remarkably little heed to. In fact, getting rich has often been regarded as a by-product of living an upright Christian life; and I bet the the extremely-rich US evangelists don�t worry about their wealth coming between them and the Pearly Gates.

Another case of the �Pick-n-mix� which runs through all Christian history?

Well said, Stephen. I wonder what Jesus would think if he came to suburban Atlanta one Sunday morning and saw the multitude of beautiful, multi-million dollar churches surrounded by parking lots jammed with $50,000 SUV's with Jesus fish-symbols on the back?

Oh, how they pick-and-mix...

CX · 10-15-2003, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
This page seems to contain every possible speculation about the terms, although it is very disorganized, and starts off by claiming incorrectly that the Biblical verse is a translation error.

There was no gate in Jerusalem known as the Eye of the Needle - that was just a later story to try to make sense of the saying (or see postcards, take your pick). So forget all that.

On the other hand, it does appear that the word for camel (gamlo) was the same as the word for rope - bacause ropes were typically made of camel hair. The words in Greek are very similar - kamilos vs. kamelos.

This confusion is used as evidence that the saying was originally in Aramaic, where trying to thread a needle with a rope makes some sense. But not every scholar agrees that this is an indication that the Bible was originally in Aramaic.

I think the Rope/Camel notion is an intriguing one, though one wonders which way round the transformation occured (regardless of what the present CT says). That being said there is ample reason to think that the original saying was uttered in Aramaic without implying that the entire text was therefore written in Aramaic

CX · 10-15-2003, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen T-B
Whether its a ship?s rope or a camel going through the eye of a needle, or a camel going through a very narrow gate, it seems fairly obvious that ?Jesus? or the preachers who inspired the Jesus myth, didn?t think much of the rich.
This seems to be an element of Christ?s teachings which Christians have paid remarkably little heed to. In fact, getting rich has often been regarded as a by-product of living an upright Christian life; and I bet the the extremely-rich US evangelists don?t worry about their wealth coming between them and the Pearly Gates.

Another case of the ?Pick-n-mix? which runs through all Christian history?

Your point is well taken though I'm not sure how closely this follows the topic. In any event where it not for the "salad bar" attitude embraced by modern Xianity it would not be the huge marketing success that it is.

beastmaster · 10-15-2003, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen T-B
it seems fairly obvious that �Jesus� or the preachers who inspired the Jesus myth, didn�t think much of the rich.

I think you've got it all upsidedown and backward. The Camel/Needle aphorism is just the set-up -- the punchline is that "with God, all things are possible." Jesus isn't rejecting the rich, but the opposite: he is telling rich people to "Follow Me" because Jesus is the only way for rich people to get into heaven.

Gawdawful · 10-15-2003, 02:51 PM

Shortly following the camel-eye-needle passage:

Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Bejezeus seems to be saying "Forsake all that you have, homes, family, and lands and follow me for you shall receive a hundred times more in the afterlife."

Warren in Oklahoma

AJ113 · 10-15-2003, 03:48 PM

The interesting aspect of this discussion for me is the fact that it is taking place. If there can be this much debate, discussion and disagreement as to the meaning of one specific sentence in the bible, isn't that indicative of the overwhelming hopeless task that is set before anyone who is attempting to make sense of the tome as a whole?

And isn't this yet another clear indication that an all-powerful, loving supernatural being would have made a better job of trying to communicate with it's creation?

Gawdawful · 10-15-2003, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113
The interesting aspect of this discussion for me is the fact that it is taking place. If there can be this much debate, discussion and disagreement as to the meaning of one specific sentence in the bible, isn't that indicative of the overwhelming hopeless task that is set before anyone who is attempting to make sense of the tome as a whole?

And isn't this yet another clear indication that an all-powerful, loving supernatural being would have made a better job of trying to communicate with it's creation?

Kinay!

Warren is OK, really

10-15-2003, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113

And isn't this yet another clear indication that an all-powerful, loving supernatural being would have made a better job of trying to communicate with it's creation?

That's just the beauty of it. He is communicating with his own creation but you are just not one of those. Why did you think humans are banned from Eden?

10-15-2003, 08:05 PM

The answer is very simple because a rich man cannot get into heaven as a rich man. This same is true for a poor man because also a poor man cannot get into heaven. The reason for this is that only a man without any adjectives can get into heaven and it don't matter if this is rich, poor, Jew, or Catholic.

Take a good look a the crucifixion and see what was crucified: the bare naked ego.

AJ113 · 10-16-2003, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos
That's just the beauty of it. He is communicating with his own creation but you are just not one of those.

Charming. I was "one of those" for forty years when I was a practising catholic. So now that I have changed my views, the history of my creation has somehow magically changed aswell?

Why did you think humans are banned from Eden?

I don't, Amos.
I don't think that Eden exists. I don't think it ever did. Therefore I don't believe that humans are banned from it.

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10-15-2003, 02:51 PM	#35
Gawdawful Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In a cardboard box under the viaduct. Posts: 2,107	Shortly following the camel-eye-needle passage: Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. Bejezeus seems to be saying "Forsake all that you have, homes, family, and lands and follow me for you shall receive a hundred times more in the afterlife." Warren in Oklahoma

10-15-2003, 03:48 PM	#36
AJ113 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Hull UK Posts: 854	The interesting aspect of this discussion for me is the fact that it is taking place. If there can be this much debate, discussion and disagreement as to the meaning of one specific sentence in the bible, isn't that indicative of the overwhelming hopeless task that is set before anyone who is attempting to make sense of the tome as a whole? And isn't this yet another clear indication that an all-powerful, loving supernatural being would have made a better job of trying to communicate with it's creation?

10-15-2003, 08:05 PM	#39
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	The answer is very simple because a rich man cannot get into heaven as a rich man. This same is true for a poor man because also a poor man cannot get into heaven. The reason for this is that only a man without any adjectives can get into heaven and it don't matter if this is rich, poor, Jew, or Catholic. Take a good look a the crucifixion and see what was crucified: the bare naked ego.

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