Darth Dane

But what would he have to get angry about??

No trading in the house of God....the law is "ask and you shall be given". We can't trade, we should give when asked.


So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area...

It doesn't say he actually hit them. It says he drove them out. Well, if someone is using a whip, and is saying "get out" I would be running as well.

So I don't buy it, Jesus causing pain in this way.






DD - Love & Laughter

Biff the unclean

No trading in the house of God....the law is "ask and you shall be given". We can't trade, we should give when asked.
That makes no sense at all. " ask and you shall be given" is not the law. The vendors in the courtyard were providing a service without which the temple could not function.

It doesn't say he actually hit them. It says he drove them out.
That's what the word "drove" means. He hit them.

Well, if someone is using a whip, and is saying "get out" I would be running as well.
Your lack of courage not withstanding the bible doesn't say that he scared them away, it clearly says that he "drove" them away. It says that he whipped them.

So I don't buy it, Jesus causing pain in this way.
That's because your vision of who Jesus was comes from your own imagination and not what is written in the bible. Using a scourge he would have done more than just hit them, he'd have lacerated them.

Darth Dane

No trading in the house of God....the law is "ask and you shall be given". We can't trade, we should give when asked.
That makes no sense at all. " ask and you shall be given" is not the law. The vendors in the courtyard were providing a service without which the temple could not function.

Of course it could. If noone asked for something in return, but gave when a man aksed for food, it would function just fine.

It doesn't say he actually hit them. It says he drove them out.
That's what the word "drove" means. He hit them.

Well, if someone is using a whip, and is saying "get out" I would be running as well.
Your lack of courage not withstanding the bible doesn't say that he scared them away, it clearly says that he "drove" them away. It says that he whipped them.

Ok, if Jesus did this, then it means of course, that he was a human, who was very divine, but couldn't control his anger.
God is control, Satan is lack of control. So Jesus wasn't all the way there.


So I don't buy it, Jesus causing pain in this way.
That's because your vision of who Jesus was comes from your own imagination and not what is written in the bible. Using a scourge he would have done more than just hit them, he'd have lacerated them.

I stand corrected in the sense, that I do not know why Jesus did this, if not him loosing control is the issue.

So even Jesus could have perfected his life a wee bit more.

Jesus also says; "no-one is good except my father in heaven"


But despite that loss of control, Jesus is still one of the finer)finest)examples of a good life. He healed and so on.







DD - Love & Laughter

Biff the unclean

Of course it could. If noone asked for something in return, but gave when a man aksed for food, it would function just fine.
Do you think that Jesus drove the cafeteria workers out of the temple?
These were the money changers. Jewish law didn't let Roman coins with Roman gods minted on them into the temple. This was money the faithful was donating to the temple.

Ok, if Jesus did this, then it means of course, that he was a human, who was very divine, but couldn't control his anger.
No, it means that he was a criminal, and a blasphemer, and a bully.

God is control, Satan is lack of control. So Jesus wasn't all the way there.
So now Jesus isn't god. He's just another violent trouble maker in the middle east�no different than the ones who make the headlines everyday or so.

I stand corrected in the sense, that I do not know why Jesus did this, if not him loosing control is the issue.
But you do understand how causing a riot in the cities main center of worship is breaking the law?

So even Jesus could have perfected his life a wee bit more.

Jesus also says; "no-one is good except my father in heaven"
That is contempt for all mankind. It's a pretty sick thing to say.

But despite that loss of control, Jesus is still one of the finer)finest)examples of a good life. He healed and so on
If somebody claims that they cured blindness by spitting in mud and sticking this mud in the blind man's eye�and that they cured schizophrenia by getting a bunch of little devils to jump out of the sufferer and into a herd of piggies then that person isn't a healer he's a con man. Best give him wide berth.

Jayjay

To answer to opening post: Nobody deserves to be crucified. Killed, maybe, but killed by crucifixion, no.

Devilnaut

I think the xian idea is that Jesus has to die to keep him from being a hypocrite and a liar. He said we are to love God with all our heart, but this is impossible as long as our world is divided between "us" and "them" (our identity, and the perceived identities of every other thing). It is impossible because of the presence of form. Our consciousness (ego) forms that which our subconscious (soul) creates and as long as this division exists our love is always filtered and can't really be perfect. Not only will a certain amount of it be turned inward (from soul to ego and stops there, IE narcissism) but the love will always be directed and if direction takes place how can love have also taken place during that time? Two things cannot happen at once so there is no way for love to be perfect AND directed.

The idea really is honesty. You cannot honestly "choose" to love something, so the faculty that does the choosing must be crucified in order you to be perfectly honest and perfectly loving. Another way to look at it is that Jesus wanted us to be selfless but isn't selflessness really just selfishness disguised? That is why Jesus' identity had to be destroyed.

That's how I see it anyways.. maybe i got something wrong.

Rational BAC

I think somebody caved too soon on the "drove them out" with a whip part.

Can mean a lot of things. Does not mean necessarily or even very obviously that Jesus harmed anyone physically in any way. Never when reading that passage did I ever visualize Jesus actually lacerating people's skin. -------I just assumed He scared the Bejesus out of them and they ran away. Sometimes I think atheists get a little carried away with their overly literal (become fanciful) imaginations.

Let's try this one. ----------

---------"I drove a dog away with a stick I had in my hand"------Does that mean I necessarily or even probably beat the shiit out of that dog---broke his nose and legs and impaled him with that stick? Not to me anyway. It just means I scared the Bejesus out of that dog and he ran away.

What does "I drove away a dog with a stick mean to all of you on first impression"? Suppose you said that to your neighbor------would your neighbor immediately call the police and have you jailed for the most flagrant and disgusting type of animal cruelty? Or would he just assume the dog got scared and ran away? ------and not give it a second thought, much less call the police on you.

Now, If you told your neighbor that you drove away that dog with a stick and described the blood and guts all over the ground then you probably should call the police.

And if, in that passage in the Bible , deep lacerations were described, blood was flowing on the ground, and eyeballs were lost in the mayhem--------then you might have a legitimate point.

But from what is described in the Bible, and from how the average person, without adding a whole bunch of gory stuff to the story would discern---------It just aint there.

Be honest now.-----------Only thing for certain is that Jesus lost his temper and scared a bunch of what He considered to be crooks away.

Sabine Grant

Salut Grand Pere ! you are doing pretty good for an irrational person!
It seems to me that Christ drove away cattle and turned over tables which were used to promote mercantilist exchanges. Maybe someone can point to a specific phrase where he is described as whipping a human being. No doubt that the merchants ran away as they faced a rather determined man who was sick and tired of the presence of materialism in a location where spirituality was to prevail. Makes sense to me....we need a few Christlike drive away actions in some of our churches.....

mark9950

They faced a man who was a criminal sentenced to death for breaking their law.

He could not have been God not respecting their law.

God expects us to obey his law,when he did not respect the jews law.

Sounds like the do as I say not as I do syndrome.

Jesus was a hypocrite.

Rational BAC

God can do anything He damned well pleases, or He would not be God.