Freethought & Rationalism Archive

alexis31055 · 06-07-2006, 11:21 AM

I did find some things about them mudering children and here a some that i found.
KILL SON OF THE SINNERS
Make ready to slaughter his son for the guilt of their fathers;Lest they rise and posses the earth,and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants(Isaiah 14:21)
MORE RAPE AND BABY KILLING
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right befor thier eyes . Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by hordes. For i will stir up the medes against babylon,and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off .The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no comparrsion for the children.(Isaiah 13:15-18)
I don't understand why put women and children through all this pain.

HarryStine · 06-07-2006, 11:44 AM

Those are the Medes not the Hebrews. I was given the impression that this was about God explicitly asking the Hebrews to rape women and murder children. What you have is the equivalent of nuking a military base. There would be quite alot of collateral damage. Though the raping wasn't originally intended since it happens it serves as a great illustration of the severity of the affair.

alexis31055 · 06-07-2006, 12:02 PM

Here are the quotes from Jesus that proves that he lied:

1) And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

2) Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)

3) Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20 NAS)

4) Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25 NAB)

5) And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Luke 11:9-13 NAB)

6) And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB)

7) If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. (John 15:7 NAB)

8) It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. (John 15:16 NAB)

9) On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete. (John 16:23-24 NAB)

Anat · 06-07-2006, 12:21 PM

Harry, read Deuteronomy 20 and 21 for God's commandments regarding behavior at war time. When fighting a distant enemy the Israelites are to kill all men and take the women and children as spoils of war, but when fighting a nearby city they shouldn't leave anyone alive. They are to be destroyed. The word used is 'herem' which means the destruction is a form of offering to the deity (Mesha used the same verb when he described his victories in his stele - that he made his enemies 'herem' to his god Kemosh).

"When thou drawest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that are found therein shall become tributary unto thee, and shall serve thee. And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it. And when the LORD thy God delivereth it into thy hand, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword; but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take for a prey unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. Howbeit of the cities of these peoples, that the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth, but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods, and so ye sin against the LORD your God." (Deuteronomy 20:10-18)

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 explains what should be done with the female captives of war: they should be humiliated and forced into marriage with their captors.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 condemns disobedient sons who eat and drink excessively to death by stoning.

BigJim · 06-07-2006, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

I don't rememember the men eating their own kids bit, though. Could you point me to it?

Maybe he's confusing the bible with Swift's A Modest Proposal; a common mistake, since both books are in the same genre.

alexis31055 · 06-07-2006, 03:58 PM

As for the eating kids thing read kings 2 (6:27-29)

JEST2ASK · 06-08-2006, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryStine

Not too palatable, I'll grant, but that says nothing about reality. Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be.

I fully agree with this :notworthy: However ... we soon part ways

Quote:

God has absolute rights over us, and at times has gone to extremes in exercising them. That doesn't make him arbitrary, however. I'm sorry that have to tell you that God works in mysterious ways like you've heard so many times before, but that's the case. Still, I think you'd agree that if God does exist then it would make sense for suc a transcendental person to be a bit eccentric in our eyes. It's only natural.

I disagree it does make him/she/it arbitrary either there is a set of rules / laws that god abides by or it is merely whim ...

Quote:

It has occured to me, but it also makes sense that a book written over the period of a millenia (during which Hebrew and literary styles probably changed drastically) and then translated through multiple languages before reaching us is going to have some problems which can only be worked out by going back to the sources. Which would involve finding the original translation, identifying the time period it was written in, and using the correct dialect of Hebrew or Greek and noting taking note of the completely foreign literary style it was written in. That's a real daunting task. Quite something compared with sitting down and reading the book like it's a recent novel and taking notes everytime it doesn't make sense. It wouldn't take long before you filled several pages with one of those "incomplete" lists of "obvious biblical contradictions".

While I agree in large part that the orginal context is likely lost that is not what matters most to me ... Even if Moses was a real person and wrote the first five books of the bible and what we have today is an accurate representation of those writtings... it does not mean that it was (1) actual history (2) the enity described therein is / was the creator of the universe (3) has any of the qualities attributed to it (Love, Mercy, Wisdom etc) and is deserving of worship

Quote:

I support rigor when seeking the truth when building an edifice in support of it, but answering every single objection is something very different. Not every objection strikes at the foundation. Most just make you uncomfortable with what you believe in.

I agree and it is the central key foundation issues that I object to the most .. the little trivia (IMO) inconsistencies simply are indicators regarding the unsound foundation.

Quote:

It is also coherent in saying, "God made us, has power over us, wants us to do this, this, and this, and has performed these and these actions to demonstrate that we should take him seriously.
[JEST2ASK]sorry if I can not do that, nothing against you but to each their own ..

I wouldn't ask you to flip a coin to determine what to blindly trust in, but I would expect you to start looking for some positive evidence concerning the nature of reality. Having an idea as to what you should believe is not the same as guessing, nor is it the same as knowing why all those little quibbles about why shouldn't believe are just nonsense.

The bible is coherent in that who ever is authoring a particular segment is making such claims based on personal revelation ... and it is because I am searching for positive evidence regarding the nature of reality and trying to be as humanely objective as possible that I examine their claims in light of a larger body of human knowledge ....

(Personal Nit Pick) I have never understood the mentality of those who state Well God is the potter and we are just the clay ... what right do we have to tell the Potter what to do with us .... The converse is never given (except by a very small group) equal validity ... What potter blames the clay pot for not being the Vase he wanted ... especially when this potter controlls every aspect of production ... Also I have noticed that many claim that this potter god loves us and wants to have fellowship with us ... sorry but I am unclear how the two ideas mesh ... either we are to be treated as inaminate objects or we are to be treated (not as equals in power or ability) as sentient creatures

HarryStine · 06-08-2006, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexis31055

Here are the quotes from Jesus that proves that he lied:

1) And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

2) Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)

3) Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20 NAS)

4) Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25 NAB)

5) And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Luke 11:9-13 NAB)

6) And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB)

7) If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. (John 15:7 NAB)

8) It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. (John 15:16 NAB)

9) On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete. (John 16:23-24 NAB)

Those are pretty definite convictions for one who's been "wandering". Much of this stuff is figurative. For example, when Christ says "faith the size of a mustard seed" Lk 17:6 he did not mean that faith could have a physical size. What he meant was that the faith required to move mountains was really very little, and, because the disciples obviously could not move mountains, they should be concerned with increasing their faith.

Steven Carr · 06-08-2006, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryStine

Those are pretty definite convictions for one who's been "wandering". Much of this stuff is figurative. For example, when Christ says "faith the size of a mustard seed" Lk 17:6 he did not mean that faith could have a physical size. What he meant was that the faith required to move mountains was really very little, and, because the disciples obviously could not move mountains, they should be concerned with increasing their faith.

1 Corintihians 13:2 is interesting.

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

This passage only makes sense if Paul thinks that a faith than can move mountains is a big faith, but is still nothing , if he does not have love.

Yet another example of Paul and his readers simply having no idea what Jesus was supposed to have taught.

Helpmabob · 06-09-2006, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

This passage only makes sense if Paul thinks that a faith than can move mountains is a big faith, but is still nothing , if he does not have love.

Hi Stephen - 1 Corinthians 13 is all about the significance of love, but Paul is not belittling the importance of faith. Paul says that no matter how great his faith, he himself has nothing (i.e. has no asurance of righteousness in the sight of God) if he has no love. Although love is the greatest, faith and hope still remain.

Hebrews 11 makes clear the significance of faith.

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06-07-2006, 11:21 AM	#11
alexis31055 Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: georgia Posts: 5	I did find some things about them mudering children and here a some that i found. KILL SON OF THE SINNERS Make ready to slaughter his son for the guilt of their fathers;Lest they rise and posses the earth,and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants(Isaiah 14:21) MORE RAPE AND BABY KILLING Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right befor thier eyes . Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by hordes. For i will stir up the medes against babylon,and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off .The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no comparrsion for the children.(Isaiah 13:15-18) I don't understand why put women and children through all this pain.

06-07-2006, 11:44 AM	#12
HarryStine Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Augusta, Georgia Posts: 331	Those are the Medes not the Hebrews. I was given the impression that this was about God explicitly asking the Hebrews to rape women and murder children. What you have is the equivalent of nuking a military base. There would be quite alot of collateral damage. Though the raping wasn't originally intended since it happens it serves as a great illustration of the severity of the affair.

06-07-2006, 12:02 PM	#13
alexis31055 Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: georgia Posts: 5	Here are the quotes from Jesus that proves that he lied: 1) And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS) 2) Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB) 3) Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20 NAS) 4) Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25 NAB) 5) And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Luke 11:9-13 NAB) 6) And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB) 7) If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. (John 15:7 NAB) 8) It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. (John 15:16 NAB) 9) On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete. (John 16:23-24 NAB)

06-07-2006, 12:21 PM	#14
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Harry, read Deuteronomy 20 and 21 for God's commandments regarding behavior at war time. When fighting a distant enemy the Israelites are to kill all men and take the women and children as spoils of war, but when fighting a nearby city they shouldn't leave anyone alive. They are to be destroyed. The word used is 'herem' which means the destruction is a form of offering to the deity (Mesha used the same verb when he described his victories in his stele - that he made his enemies 'herem' to his god Kemosh). "When thou drawest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that are found therein shall become tributary unto thee, and shall serve thee. And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it. And when the LORD thy God delivereth it into thy hand, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword; but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take for a prey unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. Howbeit of the cities of these peoples, that the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth, but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods, and so ye sin against the LORD your God." (Deuteronomy 20:10-18) Deuteronomy 21:10-14 explains what should be done with the female captives of war: they should be humiliated and forced into marriage with their captors. Deuteronomy 21:18-21 condemns disobedient sons who eat and drink excessively to death by stoning.

06-07-2006, 03:58 PM	#16
alexis31055 Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: georgia Posts: 5	As for the eating kids thing read kings 2 (6:27-29)

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