FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-26-2012, 09:57 PM   #361
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: On the path of knowledge
Posts: 8,889
Default

Don't hold your breath.
Sheshbazzar is offline  
Old 02-26-2012, 10:30 PM   #362
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: England
Posts: 2,527
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernard Muller View Post
To Maryhelena,
Well that still looks very complicated to me. And you put too much reliance on writings like the Slavonic Josephus and Acts of Pilate.
Well, the so-called prophecy moment in Jotapata is just politics to me, something Josephus sold to his captors in order to save his skin and kept repeating it to assure him of a good life in Rome.
As far as the prophets are concerned, true, it seems that they were written history, but that was mostly with hindsights (after the facts), or because cursing against enemies was interpreted as prophecies later whenever that enemy got destroyed or conquered, or because of tenuous interpretation (such as about Daniel also predicting the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans). And Josephus, as a good Jew, would go along with that (the so-called successful prophecy becoming history) but I do not think he was going overboard and making his own prophecies in guise of history. That needs to be proven. Where does Josephus predict the future and create prophetic writings?
Slavonic Josephus, and Acts of Pilate, are just two of many non-canonical writings. The stories they contain can't simply be wished away because they are inconvenient for those who prefer the canonical view of 'history'. A detective does not discard evidence just because it might come from the 'opposition'. No smoke without a fire

As for Josephus being a prophetic historian:

Quote:
War, Book 3 ch.8

“….he called to mind the dreams which he had dreamed in the night time, whereby God had signified to him beforehand both the future calamities of the Jews, and the events that concerned the Roman emperors. Now Josephus was able to give shrewd conjectures about the interpretation of such dreams as have been ambiguously delivered by God. Moreover, he was not unacquainted with the prophecies contained in the sacred books, as being a priest himself, and of the posterity of priests"...
Quote:
Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Robert Karl Gnuse.

Josephus claims he was a child prodigy, who investigated the beliefs of the major Jewish sects.......Scholars discuss which of these traditions might have influenced Josephus the most in regard to his prophetic abilities, including the skill of dream interpretations........Others accept Josephus’ own statements (War 3.351-353) that his priestly background in interpreting scripture gave him prophetic and oneirocritical skills.....

It is suggested that Josephus read the traditions of the past through the subjective lens of his own age, infatuated as it was with the phenomenon of dreams, and he ‘modelled this practice of prophetic activity on his own experience as a clairvoyant’. By his own testimony Josephus interpreted dreams as to forsee the triumph of Rome over the Jews (War 3.351-353)....His prediction that Vespasian would become emperor (War 3.400-402)....and the claim to have predicted Jotapata’s fall (War 3.406-408) may have originated in those dreams. He regards himself as having affinity with his namesake in Genesis, Joseph, the interpreter of dreams....

Other authors suggest his ability was merely a mode of biblical exegesis, non-priestly in origin, and it was associated more with prophetic skills. Finally, a few commentators suggest an Essenic origin for his interest in dreams. Josephus does refer to Simon the Essene positively as a dream interpreter in War 2.112-113 and Ant 17.345-348, and he acknowledges Essenic skill in predicting the future, which came from their exegetical and oneirocritical abilities. In particular, Josephus favourably mentions the activity of Simon the Essene; Menahem, who foretold Herod’s s rise to power (Ant 15.78-80) and Judas, who foretold the death of Antigonus (War 1.78-80 = Ant 13.311-313)....

The significance of dreams and dream reports in Josephus for providing us insight into his religious perceptions cannot be underestimated. Josephus is a product of the first century A.D. Hellenistic world with its interest in dreams and apparitions. ......There is another aspect which also deserves mention. The dream experience is part of the greater phenomenon of a prophet in the mind of Josephus. Prophets received and interpreted dreams; Josephus received and interpreted dreams. By reference to these many dreams Josephus may tell us something about himself....

The primary function of the prophets for Josephus was to predict the future and to enlighten future generations of their fate, “for whatever happens to us whether for good or ill comes about in accordance with their prophecies” (Ant 10.35)....
Quote:
Prophetic Figures in Late Second Temple Jewish Palestine:The Evidence from Josephus (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Rebecca Gray

Josephus presents himself in two different, but overlapping, prophetic roles. He appears , first, as a Jeremiah-like figure, a priest who denounces sin and preaches repentance, whose message is the submission to foreign rule is God’s will, who stands fast against the delusions of false prophets and rebels, and who is concerned, above all, with preserving God’s holy temple. He claims to have been called to perform this role in a dramatic moment of revelation in which he appears, secondly, as a Daniel-type figure, an esoteric wise man who can interpret the meaning of even the most difficult dreams and omens, who understands the prophecies of the sacred books, and who knows God’s plans for kings and kingdoms’ in this portrait, too, I noted a certain priestly element. Like Daniel, Josephus was to rise to a position of prominence under a foreign ruler as a result of his prophetic gifts and would be subject to accusations from envious opponents and rivals.
What all this means for Josephan studies is that one cannot take anything Josephus writes at face value. One needs outside confirmation, historical evidence, to support his statements.
maryhelena is offline  
Old 02-27-2012, 06:39 AM   #363
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

The Canonized Pauline writings contain Extremely important clues to LOGICALLY deduce they were AFTER the Jesus story was known publicly and AFTER there were WRITINGS about the character Jesus Christ.

1. The Pauline writer claimed he was a Persecutor of Christian churches. Galatians 1

2. The Pauline writer IDENTIFIED Christians by name who were BEFORE him [Andronicus and Junia]. Romans 16

So, we see that the Pauline writer did state that there were Christians BEFORE him.

Next we will NOTICE that the Pauline writer claimed the Christians PREACHED the FAITH BEFORE him.

1. The Pauline writer claimed he Persecuted the FAITH he PRESENTLY Preached. Galatians 1

Again, the Pauline writer claimed that BEFORE HIM there were Christian churches, Christians called Andronicus and Junia and Christians Preached about Jesus Christ.

The Pauline writer did NOT consider himself the First Christian or the First to Preach the Christian Faith.

Again, by the time the Pauline writer was ready to Preach the Christian Faith the Jesus story was ALREADY publicly known and Circulated within the Roman Empire.

Now, we will see that the Pauline writer did write that there was a WRITTEN source of the Jesus story where it was WRITTEN that Jesus died for OUR SINS, was buried and resurrected on the THIRD day.

Hebrew Scripture does NOT at all contain any passage where a character called Jesus DIED for the Sins of Jews and was raised from the dead on the THIRD day.

1The Pauline writer did state that Jesus DIED for OUR SINS and was raised on the THIRD day according to the Scriptures.. 1 Cor.15

And to show that the Pauline Jesus did resurrect according to Scriptures the Pauline writer wrote of SIX Post-resurrection visits to him and OVER 500 people.

1.The Pauline writer claimed he was LAST of Over 500 people to be VISITED by the Post-Resurrected Jesus. 1 Cor.15

The WRITTEN Statements of the Pauline writer are extremely comprehensive and rather easy to follow.

The Pauline Letters were written AFTER the Jesus story was ALREADY COMPOSED, and AFTER there were Christians KNOWN to the Pauline writer.
aa5874 is offline  
Old 02-27-2012, 07:08 AM   #364
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: middle east
Posts: 310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo the Clown-O View Post
The appearance to “500” can be found in Acts of Pilate Chapters 12 & 13.
“Pilate therefore, upon this, gave them five hundred soldiers, who also sat round the sepulchre so as to guard it” “And upon this there came up one of the soldiers guarding the tomb, and he said in the synagogue: Learn that Jesus has risen.”
...
The Pauline writer claimed it was OVER 500 BRETHREN--Not over 500 guards.

And you will notice that it was ONE soldier who claimed Jesus was risen in your source.
I noticed that that ONE soldier claimed this:
And from fear of him, all of us soldiers became as dead, and were able neither to flee nor speak. And we heard the angels saying to the women who came there to see the tomb: Be not you afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus. He is not here, but is risen, as He told you before. Bend down and see the tomb where His body lay; but go and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and let them go into Galilee, for there shall they find Him. For this reason I tell you this first.
Did you?
Bingo the Clown-O is offline  
Old 02-27-2012, 07:25 AM   #365
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 4,095
Default

AA, there is nothing unusual about the writer of Galatians acknowledging other trends in the Christ movement.
But there is no indications that Scripture referred to anything other than the Jewish Scriptures. "Paul" doesn't quote anything else.
He just says that his gospel revelation is exclusive and is the true one.
There were other preachers. But of course it is only in Galatians that he claims an exclusive revelation.
Duvduv is offline  
Old 02-27-2012, 07:48 AM   #366
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: middle east
Posts: 310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlDoherty View Post
I'm sure the scholarly world is anxious to hear Bingo the Clown's case for "knowing" that Paul is fiction.
What does the “scholarly world” have to say about the zombies Matthew 27:51-54?
Matthew 27:51-54
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after his resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”
The zombies look like midrash on Ezekiel 37:12-13.
Ezekiel 37:12-13
Therefore prophesy, and tell them, ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says: Look, I am about to open your graves and will raise you from your graves, my people. I will bring you to the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and raise you from your graves, my people.
But there is a problem with Matthew. Here it is:
They came out of the tombs after his resurrection …

When the centurion … saw … all that had happened … exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”
The problem is that the words “after his resurrection” delays the appearance of those resurrected for three days. The centurion could not have been awed by their resurrection if the resurrected dead did not leave their tombs.

But he was.

It looks to me like “after his resurrection” is a gloss. It looks like it was added later. It looks like it was added to bring Matthew in line with 1 Corinthians 15:20-23:
1 Corinthians 15:20-23
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
See?

According to Paul the “holy people” could not rise before Jesus. So someone tweaked Matthew.

Now here’s the thing: If Paul pre-dates Matthew then why did Matthew make that mistake?

But if Matthew pre-dates Paul then it all makes sense – including the gloss.

Do you understand?

------------------------------------------

Also get a load of Tatian’s Diatessaron Section LII.
And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and said, My Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. He said that, and bowed his head, and gave up his spirit. And immediately the face of the door of the temple was rent into two parts from top to bottom; and the earth was shaken; and the stones were split to pieces; and the Arabic, tombs were opened; and the bodies of many saints which slept, arose and came forth; and after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. And the officer of the footsoldiers, and they that were with him who were guarding Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things which came to pass, feared greatly, and praised God, and said, This man was righteous; and, Truly he was the Son of God.
In Matthew the “holy people” rise from their graves after Jesus’ resurrection.

But in Tatian’s Diatessaron the “holy people” rise after the earthquake.

Tatian’s Diatessaron preserves the original reading of Matthew.

The original reading of Matthew disagreed with Paul's "firstfruits" theology.

The original reading of Matthew disagreed with Paul's "firstfruits" theology because Paul's "firstfruits" theology didn't exist when Matthew 27 was written.
Bingo the Clown-O is offline  
Old 02-27-2012, 09:05 AM   #367
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

You cannot assume that the versions we have now for the books in the New Testament are the original edition. There were many opportunities for later scribes to go through and harmonize details like this.
Toto is offline  
Old 02-27-2012, 09:49 AM   #368
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,435
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo the Clown
See?

According to Paul the “holy people” could not rise before Jesus. So someone tweaked Matthew.

Now here’s the thing: If Paul pre-dates Matthew then why did Matthew make that mistake?

But if Matthew pre-dates Paul then it all makes sense – including the gloss.

Do you understand?
Matthew made that “mistake” because he didn’t know Paul’s writings, or perhaps didn’t care what Paul thought. Your unsupported assumption that he did has led you down the garden path—or maybe it’s the yellow brick road.

It is quite possible that the “after the resurrection” is a later gloss, maybe even to align with Paul. But that proves absolutely nothing about the order in which Matthew and Paul were written, and does not of itself permit you to declare Paul a “fiction” which was concocted later than the Gospels.

Earl Doherty
EarlDoherty is offline  
Old 02-27-2012, 09:56 AM   #369
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvduv View Post
AA, there is nothing unusual about the writer of Galatians acknowledging other trends in the Christ movement.
But there is no indications that Scripture referred to anything other than the Jewish Scriptures. "Paul" doesn't quote anything else.
He just says that his gospel revelation is exclusive and is the true one.
There were other preachers. But of course it is only in Galatians that he claims an exclusive revelation.
Of course the Pauline writer referred to Christian Scripture.

There is NO Hebrew Scripture that states "Jesus died for OUR SINS".

There is NO Hebrew Scripture that states "Jesus was resurrected on the THIRD day.

The statements made by the Pauline writer in 1 Cor 15. are BLASPHEMOUS and CONTRARY to Jewish Laws found in Hebrew Scripture.

We can't be going over the same thing over and over.

Either you present the evidence or stop making UNSUBSTANTIATED assertions.

You ought to very well know that there is NO Hebrew Scripture that states Jesus DIED for OUR SINS and was resurrected on the THIRD day.

Hebrew Scripture states that the Sacrifice of Bulls, Goats and even birds are for Atonement of Sins.

The Jewish writer Josephus Corroborates that Jewish LAWS found in Hebrew Scripture requires the Sacrifice of Bulls, Goats and even birds.

See Antiquities of the Jews 3.9.3
Quote:
3. The sacrifices for sins are offered in the same manner as is the thank-offering. But those who are unable to purchase complete sacrifices, offer two pigeons, or turtle doves......... But if a person fall into sin by ignorance, he offers an ewe lamb, or a female kid of the goats........ But if any one sin, and is conscious of it himself, but hath nobody that can prove it upon him, he offers a ram........... And if the rulers offer sacrifices for their sins, they bring......... for sacrifices a bull or a kid of the goats, both males.
Please, please, please!!! We know the Jewish LAWS in Hebrew Scripture had ZERO to do with a Third day resurrected Jesus

Again and again, the Pauline writer claimed he PERSECUTED Christians and IDENTIFIED them by NAME, Andronicus and Junia.

1. But, now the Pauline writer claimed he MET THREE characters found in the Jesus stories, Peter/Cephas, James and John. Galatians 2

The written statements from the Pauline writer are EXTREMELY easy to comprehend.

1. There were Christians before Paul began to preach the Faith.

2. Paul PERSECUTED the Faith.

3. There were Christian Scriptures with a story of Jesus that he DIED for OUR SINS and resurrected on the THIRD day.

4. PAUL claimed he was in the Presence of Peter/Cephas, James, and John in Jerusalem and these characters found ONLY in CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES.


The Pauline writer, the Persecutor, gave more than enough information to show that he was NOT the first to preach the FAITH, that he was LAST to be visited by the resurrected Jesus and that he knew of Christian Scriptures.
aa5874 is offline  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:22 AM   #370
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlDoherty View Post

Matthew made that “mistake” because he didn’t know Paul’s writings, or perhaps didn’t care what Paul thought. Your unsupported assumption that he did has led you down the garden path—or maybe it’s the yellow brick road.

It is quite possible that the “after the resurrection” is a later gloss, maybe even to align with Paul. But that proves absolutely nothing about the order in which Matthew and Paul were written, and does not of itself permit you to declare Paul a “fiction” which was concocted later than the Gospels.

Earl Doherty
Let us NOT waste our time with semantics.

There is simple no corroborative evidence with the NT Canon or non-apologetic sources that can show the Pauline writer was the first to preach, teach or write about a character called Jesus who supposedly died for OUR Sins and resurrected on the THIRD day.

The Pauline writer did NOT ever claim he was first and placed himself LAST in a list of OVER 500 people.

When Paul was ready to preach Jesus there ALREADY were Christian churches, Christian people and Christian Scripture based on the very words of the Pauline writer.

ALL the books of the NT Canon that mention a character called Jesus are AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE since the very first non-apologetic sources to mention Christians was about the mid 2nd century [Lucian and Celsus]
aa5874 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:40 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.