Freethought & Rationalism Archive

thedeist · 03-06-2008, 08:07 AM

JohnnySkeptic,

Go to Messiahtruth and actually ask the Jews. I noticed you have been posting there lately.

In brief, it's just ethnocentrism Johnny. that's all it is. Ingroup esotericism.

Johnny Skeptic · 03-06-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedeist

JohnnySkeptic,

Go to Messiahtruth and actually ask the Jews. I noticed you have been posting there lately.

I never heard of that web site until you mentioned it.

I already have plenty of debates going on at IIDB in four forums, and occasionally in five forums. I do not have enough time to go to other web sites.

Toto · 03-06-2008, 09:58 AM

There is a JohnySkeptic on the MessiahTruth ezboard forum. Probably not Johnny Skeptic.

sugarhitman · 03-06-2008, 11:09 AM

Why did God choose Israel? Simple because of the loyalty of their forefathers. If you study the prophecies the ultimate goal of God is to turn All nations unto Himself and not just the Jews. By this thread Johnny is leading one to believe that the Jews made themselves to be the Holy people chosen by God, if this is true why would they condemn their own selves in their own so-called made up religion? Nobody in their right minds would create a religion that harshly criticises themselves, this shows that the Word is not the creation of the Jews...but God.

Johnny Skeptic · 03-06-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Why did God choose Israel? Simple because of the loyalty of their forefathers.

On the contrary, when God killed people with hurricanes, parasites, and many other means, he did not distinguish between ethnic groups. Even when Jews were "acting right," God still injured and killed them by various means. It is an absurd notion that God would want to protect Jews from their human enemies and would refuse to protect them from harm from all other sources.

Why did God favor their forefathers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Nobody in their right minds would create a religion that harshly criticizes themselves.

Which Scriptures are you referring to?

Toto · 03-06-2008, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

...why would they condemn their own selves in their own so-called made up religion?

The Jews, like many others, identified God with the forces of nature. They assumed that when things went their way, it was because their god was doing good things for them, and that when things went badly, it was because of their sin.

Quote:

Nobody in their right minds would create a religion that harshly criticises themselves, ...

Many years ago, I read a scholarly psychological paper on the issue of "why do rape victims feel guilty?" Rape victims do feel guilty, not because of patriarchal oppression, but because people in general would rather believe that they did something wrong than believe that they were the victims of some uncontrollable force.

There is a very strong human need to believe that there is some sort of justice in the world , that we are not victims of random chance, and that we have some control over our fate. People would rather believe that their bad luck is the result of failing to worship god properly and obey all commandments, or bad events in a previous lifetime, or some other seemingly rational reason. Just anything but impersonal bad luck.

This view is expounded in Arthur Blech's The Causes of Anti-Semitism (or via: amazon.co.uk) (I read an earlier version of the book and heard a lecture by the author.)

All those Jewish prophets who criticized their own people were trying to control their own destiny.

The God hypothesis is not necessary.

chrisengland · 03-06-2008, 02:08 PM

Malachi151 Johnny was clearly asking the question to Christians!!

Johnny Skeptic · 03-06-2008, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisengland

Malachi151, Johnny was clearly asking the question to Christians!!

Of course.

mountainman · 03-06-2008, 05:04 PM

It was not quite coincidental that Constantine found Origen's Greek translations and commentaries of the Hebrew Bible (the LXX) in the library of Rome, c.312 CE when he liberated the city from the pagan senate, and had Maxentius' head put on a pike and carried around the city streets.

Constantine had also become the Pontifex Maximus, and he need to know about the great array of religions and cults, collegiately and tolerantly inter-operating in the city, and of course, in his empire of the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zosimus

BOOK 4

Upon this occasion it may not be improper to relate a circumstance which has some reference to the present part of my narration. Among the Romans, the persons who had the superintendence of sacred things were the Pontifices, whom we may term Gephyraei, if we translate the Latin word Pontifices, which signifies bridge-makers, into the Greek. The origin of that appellation was this : At a period before mankind were acquainted with the mode of worshipping by statues, some images of the gods were first made in Thessaly. As there were not then any temples (for the use of them was likewise then unknown), they fixed up those figures of the gods on a bridge over the river Peneus, and called those who sacrificed to the gods, Gephyraei, Priests of the Bridge, from the place where the images were first erected. Hence the Romans, deriving it from the Greeks, called their own priests Pontifices, and enacted a law, that kings, for the sake of dignity, should be considered of the number. The first of their kings who enjoyed this dignity was Numa Pompilius. After him it was conferred not only upon the kings but upon Octavianus and his successors in the Roman empire. Upon the elevation of any one to the imperial dignity, the pontifices brought him the priestly habit, and he was immediately styled, Pontifex Maximus, or chief priest. All former emperors, indeed, appeared gratified with the distinction, and willingly adopted the title. Even Constantine himself, when he was emperor, accepted it, although he was seduced from the path of rectitude in regard to sacred affairs, and had embraced the Christian faith. In like manner did all who succeeded him to Valentinian and Valens. But when the Pontifices, in the accustomed manner, brought the sacred robe to Gratian, he, considering it a garment unlawful for a Christian to use, rejected their offer. When the robe was restored to the priests who brought it, their chief is said to have made this observation, (nb: this was now c.365 CE)

If the emperor refuses to become Pontifex,
we shall soon make one.

Constantine was essentially a military man, he had been a soldier all his life, and he was impressed with the Hebrew Galilaeans. They were tough resistance fighters who had in the first century provided tough opposition to the ROman agenda in the east. ROme of course finally destroyed Jerusalem and the last of the resistance, but the defense of Masada and their final acts to choose suicide rather than to be dominated by the Romans impressed the Romans despite the fact that the Galilaeans were their enemies.

All the pagan authors of antiquity from Josephus and Epictetus through to the emperor Julian speak of these Galilaeans as anti-Roman rebels, gangsters, terrorists, guerillas, etc. The christian useageof that term had not been in public circulation. See Edward Gibbon on the dichotomy for this term - the followers of Judas the Galilaean.

At any rate, to cut a long story short, Constantine bound Origen's greek Hebrew Bible to a new set of literature known as the new testament, as some form of extention thereto, and the rest is history.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Malachi151 · 03-06-2008, 05:06 PM

This isn't a very good place to ask Christians questions, since about 90% of the posters here are atheists.

03-06-2008, 08:07 AM	#11
thedeist Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 22	Ethnocentrism JohnnySkeptic, Go to Messiahtruth and actually ask the Jews. I noticed you have been posting there lately. In brief, it's just ethnocentrism Johnny. that's all it is. Ingroup esotericism.

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03-06-2008, 09:58 AM	#13
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There is a JohnySkeptic on the MessiahTruth ezboard forum. Probably not Johnny Skeptic.

03-06-2008, 11:09 AM	#14
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	Why did God choose Israel? Simple because of the loyalty of their forefathers. If you study the prophecies the ultimate goal of God is to turn All nations unto Himself and not just the Jews. By this thread Johnny is leading one to believe that the Jews made themselves to be the Holy people chosen by God, if this is true why would they condemn their own selves in their own so-called made up religion? Nobody in their right minds would create a religion that harshly criticises themselves, this shows that the Word is not the creation of the Jews...but God.

03-06-2008, 02:08 PM	#17
chrisengland Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Bristol' England Posts: 2,678	Malachi151 Johnny was clearly asking the question to Christians!!

03-06-2008, 05:06 PM	#20
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	This isn't a very good place to ask Christians questions, since about 90% of the posters here are atheists.

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