semiopen

Esau is an important character, but he was the twin brother of Jacob(Israel), not his son. My theory is that he was relatively admired in ancient times,

The Song of Deborah (Judges 5) is one of the oldest passages in the bible...

His reputation gradually declined and eventually he is associated with Romans and from there Christians. There are many explanations for this; one that I like (because it is true) is that Herod was an Edomite convert. The Hasmoneans conquered Edom and forced the Edomites to convert to Judaism.

The Esau color red turns up during the reformation and is sometimes associated with the lost ten tribes (and messianism and apocalyptism).

Regarding the killing of one's son, I haven't seen anything here to change my doubts about any actually happening. Although, as I mentioned before, there is no doubt that activities were going on in that time period which we would find odd (if not barbaric) today.

Some posters here have ignored the glutton and drunkard, and suggest a more theological interpretation. The passage however...

This doesn't seem like false God's to me. God was not shy about mentioning his dislike for those things and I don't see why someone would read that in here.

storytime

Oops.. my mistake.Seems I got Isaac and Jacob[Israel] confused. :banghead:

Herod was a convert to Judaism? I read somewhere that Herod was appointed his position because of his Jewish background/lineage. Also that the color red defined Esau/Edomites as the Great Red Dragon portrayed in the book of Revelation. But I don't see how this could be assoiciated with Rome or Christians as the story was supposedly written, as some have determined, years before there was a Rome or Christians. What I see is two small groups (Israelites and Edomites) warring over land and power.

The writers portrayed their god as a hero and definetly not shy.

semiopen

I didn't know about Herod until a few months ago. Herod's father Antipater was the Idumean (Edomite); as mentioned the conversion of the Edomites was forced, which is very rare in Jewish history. There is some typically dubious Christian moralizing about this aspect of Herod.

The red comes from Edom which means red in Hebrew. In 1523, there were reports of the lost 10 tribes (600,000 strong) marching on Jerusalem. This had some importance to the church and the phrase Red Jews became popular, which was probably some attempt to switch the Israel/Esau roles.

This exact time is significant because Safed in Palestine became the center for Kaballistic study. It also dovetails nicely with the discovery of America, the expulsion of Jews from Spain, the reformation and the beginning of protestantism... quite interesting stuff.

The actual identification of Esau with Rome/Christianity is probably talmudic.
Rabbi Abraham Abulafia (1240 - 1291) made an amusing comment. He was traveling to Palestine during a crusade and said "Esau is fighting Ishmael."

Abulafia is famous for attempting to convert Pope Nicholas III in 1280, who ordered him burned at the stake. This was not carried out because Nicholas died before Abulafia showed up.