Solitary Man

Roger,

You really do have a twin of mountainman.

All the best, you silly nonsense spouter you,

Solitary Man.

Amaleq13

But that isn't what he says. :huh: The dichotomy he presents is within the context of an apparently general condemnation of the eclectic beliefs of everyone in Egypt. While it is reasonable to suspect this to be hyperbole, it does not appear to me reasonable to draw such a firm and specific distinction.

The line your conclusion appears to ignore is:

3. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer.

This should make it clear that Hadrian is not complaining about a single, specific bifurcation amongst Egyptian Christians. He is complaining about everybody believing a little bit of everything.

I agree but an interpretation that ignores such a crucial statement is more simplistic than simple.

andrewcriddle

IIUC this oracle is or purports to be the (rather ambiguous) answer of the oracle of Apollo Didymaeus at Miletus to a question asked by a pagan concerning the Greek Gods' view of Jesus.

According to some sites on the Internet (not necessarily reliable) this supposed oracle is also found in (the Anti-Christian) Porphyry's Philosophy from Oracles.

IF this is so then the oracle would be a pagan rather than a Christian production.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

We have very very little evidence of any sort of resurrection of Attis. It was probably not part of the myth or cult ritual of Attis until about 200 CE.

On the other hand it does seem true that an effigy of Attis was attached to the sacred pine-tree taken in procession on the 22nd of March

(Firmicus Maternus The Error of the Pagan Religions book 27 section 1 in media arbore simulacrum juvenis subligatur)

This does not seem related to the manner of Attis' death. Like the woollen wrappings and garlands of violets with which the pine-tree was also draped, the effigy made clear what the pine-tree represented.

Andrew Criddle

JoeWallack

JW:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BAnatal



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

patcleaver

Hi Joe, nice to meet you, thanks for the quote.

I did not mention Odin because I was thinking that the Norse Gods would not be relevant, but when you sent this, I thought about it, and your right it is relevant. Being nailed to a tree is exacly what the fictional Jesus Christ suffered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin

In the Rúnatal, a section of the Hávamál, Odin is attributed with discovering runes. He was hanged from the tree called Yggdrasill while pierced by his own javelin for nine days and nights, in order to learn the wisdom that would give him power in the nine worlds. Nine is a significant number in Norse magical practice (there were, for example, nine realms of existence), thereby learning nine (later eighteen) magical songs and eighteen magical runes. -- Odin in Wikipedia

After burning every pagan book they could find for 1,500 years, Christian apologists are claiming that Jesus is unique because there are no references to prove that any other gods ever endured tortured.

Destroying evidence is an admission that they can not prevail on the evidence. They already lost the case.

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext97/dvldc10.txt
Devil's Dictionary Etext

CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

patcleaver

The only reason that Roger thinks that all references to Jesus Christ are references to Jesus of Nazareth, and that all references to Christians are references to followers of Jesus of Nazareth, is his personal bias. He provides no evidence.

Roger just did not provide any valid argument for his comment. It is just circular reasoning. Roger just assumes that all references to Christ and Christians are references to Jesus of Nazareth and his followers; and therefore he assumes that Emperor Hadrian is confused, and therefore he concludes that since Hadrian is confused then this is not valid evidence that Serapis is called Christ or that worshipers of Serapis were called Christians.

Emperor Hadrian purportedly wrote:

I have found [Egypt] to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumor. 2. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. 3. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. 4. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ. 5. They are a folk most seditious, most deceitful, most given to injury; ... 7. Their only god is money, and this the Christians, the Jews, and, in fact, all nations adore. ... Then, no sooner had I departed thence than they said many things against my son Verus, and what they said about Antinous I believe you have learned. 9. I can only wish for them that they may live on their own chickens, which they breed in a fashion I am ashamed to describe.

Hadrian is complaining about the people of Egypt.
First he says that they are flighty and rumor mongers.
Then he defines who the Christians are (worshipers of Serapis).
Then he complains that he had to worship Serapis twice because the two sects of Serapis were divided over whether to call their pagan god Christ or Serapis.
Then he complains about how the leaders of the Jews and worshipers of Serapis engage in fraudulent religious practices (astrology, prophesy, and faith healing), and just worship money.
Then he complains about what the Egyptians said about his son Verus and about Antinous.
Then he complains about how they raise chickens.

Roger just invented the part where Hadrian says "people who worshipped Serapis one week worshipped Christ the next, and vice versa".

andrewcriddle

Further on this:

There is a somewhat related oracle about Jesus by Apollo in Augustine's City of God book 19 chapter 23 http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XIX.23.html
This is explicitly cited as being from Porphyry's work on Oracles.

This compares with the passage in Lactantius Some scholars regard the two oracles as both being distorted versions of the same passage in Porphyry.

Andrew Criddle

Amaleq13

Yes but your objection to Roger, whether true or not, certainly does not apply to my rebuttal of your reading.

You are pretending more specificity than is warranted by the text.

patcleaver

I did not ignore your issue:

There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer.

I just pointed out that this is just another one of the complaints of Hadrian.

First he defines who the Christians are. He says that the worshipers of Serapis are called Christians. Then he says that the Bishops of Christ are devoted to Serapis. Then he complains about how the leaders of the Jews and worshipers of Serapis (Christians) engage in fraudulent religious practices (astrology, prophesy, and faith healing).