Freethought & Rationalism Archive

youngalexander · 12-18-2009, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNorthover

The problem is more that no-one before about 1200 could count in Europe. The calendar goes 2BCE, 1BCE, 1CE, 2CE, ...

Much worse, they cannot count today!

mountainman · 12-18-2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngalexander

He's precocious, unusually prescient, and, above all, lives beyond his time.:notworthy:

In this our man (in the ground?) Jesus shares the same characteristics as many of the fiction characters invented by Jules Verne.

brianscott1977 · 12-18-2009, 11:05 PM

I saw the same episode of Bones and I was curious, so I did some research.

The short answer is that we are not sure when Jesus was born.

The first time Christmas was officially observed was under Constantine in 336 AD, but the idea of Jesus’ birth being around December 25 had existed for over a century already.

The earliest reference to the date of his birth that I could find was from Sextus Julius Africanus in his book Chronographiai, a reference book for Christians written in 221 AD. This book popularized the idea that Jesus was born on December 25.

While some Christmas traditions come from pagan festivals (such as the Yule log), the choice of the date seems to be a coincidence (I think).

Saturnalia did not become popular in Rome until around 300 AD, at least 80 years after the first written suggestion that Jesus was born on that date.

The sun god Mithra was a Babylonian god, which was important in Babylon (modern day Iraq), but other than Roman soldiers stationed in Babylon this was not a major celebration throughout the Roman Empire.

Also, if you look hard enough you can find a pagan festival of one kind or another on just about any date of the year.

Church fathers saw the fact that Jesus’ birthday fell near the winter solstice as a happy coincidence – it was “fitting” that Jesus was born at the same time that the sun is “reborn" – but that was not seen as the reason that Christmas was celebrated on that date.

For whatever reason, early Christians believed that Jesus was born around the turn of the year.

ApostateAbe · 12-18-2009, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianscott1977

I saw the same episode of Bones and I was curious, so I did some research.

The short answer is that we are not sure when Jesus was born.

The first time Christmas was officially observed was under Constantine in 336 AD, but the idea of Jesus’ birth being around December 25 had existed for over a century already.

The earliest reference to the date of his birth that I could find was from Sextus Julius Africanus in his book Chronographiai, a reference book for Christians written in 221 AD. This book popularized the idea that Jesus was born on December 25.

While some Christmas traditions come from pagan festivals (such as the Yule log), the choice of the date seems to be a coincidence (I think).

Saturnalia did not become popular in Rome until around 300 AD, at least 80 years after the first written suggestion that Jesus was born on that date.

The sun god Mithra was a Babylonian god, which was important in Babylon (modern day Iraq), but other than Roman soldiers stationed in Babylon this was not a major celebration throughout the Roman Empire.

Also, if you look hard enough you can find a pagan festival of one kind or another on just about any date of the year.

Church fathers saw the fact that Jesus’ birthday fell near the winter solstice as a happy coincidence – it was “fitting” that Jesus was born at the same time that the sun is “reborn" – but that was not seen as the reason that Christmas was celebrated on that date.

For whatever reason, early Christians believed that Jesus was born around the turn of the year.

Sounds like you have the answers. I believed that Christmas was borrowed from the pagan holiday, until I read an article in Biblical Archaeology that found it unlikely and quoted Africanus. Welcome to the forum. Did you find the forum doing research on this topic? Crime drama TV ticks me off a lot because it tends to treat a bunch of unlikely fringe theories as established facts. That's how I know I am a geek.

Toto · 12-19-2009, 02:40 AM

Jesus Police

Quote:

There are various theories about Jesus’ birth. Many believed that Jesus was born on January 6 (the birthday of the God Osiris). The rationale for this date was the belief that Jesus was exactly 30 years old when he died and that he died on April 6. Counting backwards from April 6 exactly 29 years and 3 months gave a birth date of January 6 (Craveri, 1967). This date was adopted by the Eastern Church and called “Epiphany" [1] or “The Appearance.”

The African Tertullian (c 160 –220 A.D.) and the Roman Hippolytus (c 170-235 A.D.) believed the date to be March 25th, the spring equinox under the ancient Roman calendar. Clement of Alexandria (c 150-215 A.D.) believed that Jesus was born on May 20, the 25 day of the Egyptian month of Pachon. None of these theories had any real facts associated with them, but they were popular nonetheless.

A 3rd Century Christian named Sextus Julius Africanus believed that March 25 was Jesus’ conception and the day of Earth’s creation as well. Using March 25 as the day of conception, he skipped ahead 9 months to December 25 as the birth date.

So it’s clear that there were a large number of dates competing for the right to be Jesus’ birth date, none based on any form of evidence. Now into the fray came a long-standing competition between early Christians and pagan worshipers of the Sun God. In 274 A.D., Roman emperor Aurelian (214-275 A.D.) made the pagan cult Sol Invictus the official religion of Rome, building temples and establishing December 25 as the birthday of the Sun.[2] Some 60 years later, the Roman church officially declared December 25 to be Jesus’ birth day.

vid · 12-19-2009, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobiius

So.... then would I be correct in assuming the reason for the December 25th date being chosen would be because that's what other pagan religions used for the births of their saviors (example: Mithraism)(dec 25th, easter etc would further be based on astronomical observations), and it was easier to convert people to xianity if certain aspects were more familiar to them?

No, the earliest document that links mithraism to 25th december is also earliest undisputed document that links jesus to 25th december explicitly. It is calendar of 354, available at Roger Pearse's site.

Quote:

The date is also mentioned by Hippolytus' commentary on Daniel (c.202)

This is disputed too. We have one copy of text that says 2nd april, and there is also statue of Hippolytus which has birth of Jesus on 2nd april. IMO there is little reason for someone to change date to 2nd april, but there is good reason to change to 25th december.

Quote:

In 274 A.D., Roman emperor Aurelian (214-275 A.D.) made the pagan cult Sol Invictus the official religion of Rome, building temples and establishing December 25 as the birthday of the Sun.

I'd like to see evidence for this claim, especially the 25th december part.

brianscott1977 · 12-19-2009, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Welcome to the forum. Did you find the forum doing research on this topic? Crime drama TV ticks me off a lot because it tends to treat a bunch of unlikely fringe theories as established facts. That's how I know I am a geek.

Abe, thank you for the welcome. Yes, I came across the forum while researching this topic. I am also a geek and it drives me crazy when TV treats fringe theories as established facts.

ApostateAbe · 12-19-2009, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianscott1977

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Welcome to the forum. Did you find the forum doing research on this topic? Crime drama TV ticks me off a lot because it tends to treat a bunch of unlikely fringe theories as established facts. That's how I know I am a geek.

Abe, thank you for the welcome. Yes, I came across the forum while researching this topic. I am also a geek and it drives me crazy when TV treats fringe theories as established facts.

Wonderful, I hope you have an interest in religion, philosophy, science, or politics. Please stick around. You can introduce yourself in the lounge.

spamandham · 12-19-2009, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

He was born at 12:00 am on 000 AD.

...a nonexistent date for a nonexistent person. Most excellent.

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12-18-2009, 11:05 PM	#33
brianscott1977 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Midwest, USA Posts: 192	I saw the same episode of Bones and I was curious, so I did some research. The short answer is that we are not sure when Jesus was born. The first time Christmas was officially observed was under Constantine in 336 AD, but the idea of Jesus’ birth being around December 25 had existed for over a century already. The earliest reference to the date of his birth that I could find was from Sextus Julius Africanus in his book Chronographiai, a reference book for Christians written in 221 AD. This book popularized the idea that Jesus was born on December 25. While some Christmas traditions come from pagan festivals (such as the Yule log), the choice of the date seems to be a coincidence (I think). Saturnalia did not become popular in Rome until around 300 AD, at least 80 years after the first written suggestion that Jesus was born on that date. The sun god Mithra was a Babylonian god, which was important in Babylon (modern day Iraq), but other than Roman soldiers stationed in Babylon this was not a major celebration throughout the Roman Empire. Also, if you look hard enough you can find a pagan festival of one kind or another on just about any date of the year. Church fathers saw the fact that Jesus’ birthday fell near the winter solstice as a happy coincidence – it was “fitting” that Jesus was born at the same time that the sun is “reborn" – but that was not seen as the reason that Christmas was celebrated on that date. For whatever reason, early Christians believed that Jesus was born around the turn of the year.

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