Magdlyn

Paul was not there. Acts is a fantasy. JMHO. Paul said enough weird stuff in his letters. We don't need him talking as the puppet of Luke as well.

GermanHeretic

They didn't pay enough, lied about it, got killed by their "loving" god. Pay, obey, or get killed, that's the message.

NearNihil Experience

"Whatsoever should it profit a man to gain the whole of the Earth, and there by loose his his eternal soul?"

Thats a paraphrase, but its in there(the Bible) somewhere....

Baidarka

I started a thread on "Who Murdered Ananias and Sapphira?" awhile ago. here is the link.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=72592

Imagine a first century TV news crew trying to uncover the truth about these deaths. An intrepid reporter chases after Peter and sticks a microphone in his face saying, excuse me sir would you please explain what happened to Ananias and Sapphira?.
Peter says, "They lied to the Lord God so he struck them dead?"
IR- Are you saying that God did it?
P- Yes God did it!
IR- Haven't you been telling people that the end of the world is coming and that they should give you all that they own to prepare for the end?

Peter's goon squad pushes the reporter aside and then they knock over the camera man.

If it is a fact that 2 members of Peter's congregation died dramatically while in a dispute with Peter over money then execution or murder is not far fetched.

LP675

No, I am afraid that is not the message. There is no “enough� they had to pay in the sense you insinuate. They were not obliged to pay anything, as Paul says regarding the land “Didn't it belong to you before it was sold?�, and regarding the proceeds “And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal?�. The reason there were killed was they had lied to the Holy Spirit by attempting to deceive the apostles and the Christian community into believing that they were donating the whole proceeds of the sale of their property, when in fact they had kept some of the money they received for the land.

LP675

Yeah I had a quick peek. Looked like a load of rubbish to me, but don’t let that offend you (it wasn’t any more of a crock than a lot of what is bandied about here).

And that last post I made brings up a ton! (takes off helmet, wipes brow and waves bat around….)
No more New User, now I’m a full blow User! :boohoo: (<--- don’t worry about the facial expression, it’s really a fiddle I’m playing joyously)

GermanHeretic

You have to read that in the historical context. The church was just about to kick-off. To turn into the worldwide empire it became later, it needed all the money and obediance it could get. So Paul scares the christians by telling them, god will slay them personally. Hell wasn't enough obviously.

Baidarka

LP675 - "I am not sure if you are intentionally attempting to deceive readers of this thread or if you simply don’t understand the text. According to Paul they were not killed for “not adding enough to the church's profit� but because they lied about how much they gave."

Please excuse my ignorance but what does Paul have to do with this?

OK LP675 let's say that they were killed for lying. (the same crime that tripped up got Clinton and Martha Stewart). You agree at least that they were killed and didn't just die (of guilt or something).
Who killed them?

Magdlyn

Just to clear up, AofA 5 concerns Peter, not Paul.

If one reads the text, it sounds like Peter was alone in the room with Anaias and later Sapphira when they died their mysterious deaths.

"And great fear seized all who heard what had happened."

They heard about it, but did not see it.

He could have told his disciples anything about how they died.

He tells Sapphira the young mens' feet are at the door.

"9 ...Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."
10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in..."

If the door was shut, but had a gap at the bottom, as it seems it did, she could have seen their feet, while alone with Peter. If the door was open, she would have seen the threatening men, not just their feet. Unless they were standing away from the door yet waggling their feet through it somehow!

First of all, I do not think Peter, a doofish fisheman as depicted in the gospel narratives, suddnely became an eloquent leader of a new religious sect. But even if he did (by inspiration of the "Holy Pneuma"), and even if Acts is historical, he could have killed these rich folks himself. He just told the gullible followers they dropped dead by the power of God. The poverty-stricken sheeple, just glad to get all the money, believed him. The bodies were buried in haste, so no-one was the wiser to their mode of death, except perhaps the goonish "young men."

This story casn be read on at least 3 levels.

As historical fact, with some kind of mysterious death and a coverup.

As theology, with a warning about not lying to god's spirit, whatever that means.

As a complete fantasy.

LP675

YOU have to make some sort of case that these two people were killed for something other than lying about the proceeds of the sale of their land. This story might have actually served to dissuade people from having anything to do with the dangerous business of making offerings to the Christian community in the form of proceeds of the sale of land, and in fact hurt Paul’s chances of fulfilling his apparently perverted ambitions of global domination.
You have made the assertion that these people were killed for “not paying enough� and not “adding enough to the church’s profit�. I have demonstrated they were killed for lying about what they gave, it is clearly what the text says. So why not demonstrate from the text or some other evidence why you are correct? Stop proffering your far-fetched pontifications unless you can make a sensible case.