Diogenes the Cynic

Can you cite any evidence that the apostles thought this?

Sheshbazzar

I must say, one of the most reasonable and thoughtful posts I have thus far seen from sotto.
What the tale may have been intended to convey and elicit, not necessarily that it is a factual or historical accounting of real world events, but that the tale did come into being with a purpose in mind (which I agree, excepting that that original intended purpose was not intended to be the basis of the founding of any 'new' anti-Jewish separatist religion.)

I would be interested in any evidence, apart from what is claimed within these highly questionable Christian propaganda documents, that; In other words, what contemporary NON-Christian writer reports that there was a massive conversion of Diaspora Jews to this new 'No-Law' renegade anti-Judaism religion?

By 'contemporary' I mean NON-Christian writings positively dated to before 150 CE, that report large numbers of Diaspora practicing Jews abandoning their traditional Jewish practices, -(7th day synagogue worship, circumcision, The Laws of Moses,)- for a new 'crucified 'messiah' lawless, despising of Judaism, form of religion.
As such a thing IF it had happened, certainly would have been very controversial, and not among the Chrestians alone.




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la70119

Actually the Parable of the Vineyard is I believe taken as a prophecy of Jesus' death and here the prediction is that the Chief Priests and the Sanhedrin were the ones who disposed of the body. (Without burial, I might add!)

Mark 12:8

Although there is a slight disagreement from Christian circles: with matthew and the Christian theologians, the killing comes last, despite the language of Mark's Greek ἐξέβαλον: to cast forth, throw out; to banish, drive out, expel. When the word ἐξέβαλον comes after the slaying, it obviously means "to throw out."

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And yes, the Centurion could very well have been sarcastic. It would come out in the Latin!

Mark 15:39 LV

But originally, if this actually happened, he would have said,

"vere homo hic Divi Filius erat," then, thinking to himself as everyone knew the sarcasm would figure out, "et ego Divus Julius sum!"

So it's possible Mk 15:39 was the original ending. But we don't have hard external evidence for that!

sotto voce

There is no disagreement there. All the gospel authors intended that their work be understood as record of the fulfilment of the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Israel, through Judah and David. To oppose Jesus was to oppose Abraham, Isaac and Israel.

'"Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?"' Mk 12:26 NIV

The question is recorded in two other gospels, and 'Mark' cannot be said to have been asserting that Jesus was manifestation of any deity but that of the accepted Scriptures.

That's not a quote.

sotto voce

'"Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?"' Mk 12:26 NIV and in two other gospels.

Diogenes the Cynic

How does Mark tell us anything about what the apostles thought? It records neither their words or their beliefs.

sotto voce

Why is Mark particularly relevant?

Diogenes the Cynic

That's what I'm asking you. You're the one who quoted it.

Bernard Muller

to la,
Yes, I tend to agree with that, but I won't vouch for specifically the Chiefs priests (even less the Sanhedrin, because there was no trial by them). Anyway workmen were hired by some authorities to take what was left of the body and throw it on the garbage pile outside Jerusalem (and possibly burn it with trash). Likely standard procedure for unclaimed bodies. That's what I think anyway.
Great observation! I am going to work on that. It looks "Matthew" did not want the parable to suggest Jesus' body was thrown out after his death, maybe because he had from gMark Joseph of A nicely depositing the corpse in the tomb. And if "Mark" originated the empty tomb passage, he would have worded the parable of the tenants differently.

Sheshbazzar

OH?

Diogenes asked you if you could cite any evidence that the -apostles- thought this.

And I asked you if you can cite any contemporary evidence demonstrating that "..many more -Jews in the diaspora-, thought it was."

Your statement designated two different groups of individuals; "the apostles" and "many more Jews in the diaspora".
Two different groups, two different questions.

Do explain how that it is that "...and many more Jews in the diaspora", is not a quote.

If the statement has a factual basis you should be able to cite some contemporary written evidence that demonstrates your statement to be factual.

I did not intend this as an attack, it was a serious question, intended to elicit any knowledge from anyone, of any contemporary record of a widespread defection of practicing Jews from their traditional Jewish beliefs and practices, for a radically different set of beliefs and practices.

As far as I know, Josephus never mentions anything supportive of any such mass defection from Judaism, does anyone else from that time??? Not to my knowledge, that is why I am asking for knowledgeable input from others who might be reading this.

I'm not Christian or Jewish, so have no religious bias that needs nurturing or protecting, I just desire to hear the evidence from anyone, who can cite any contemporary material that will validate this claim, if there is any.


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