Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hex · 10-15-2007, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinJay

The Nativity narratives in GMatt and GLuke differ in so many details that the casual reader might wonder if they're even intended to recount the same set of events.

It has often been said that it is impossible to reconcile the two Nativity accounts without inventing a lot of bridging details and performing textual gymnastics of an Olympic caliber.

regards,

NinJay

WHAT?

Different birth accounts? Different resurrection accounts?

How could it be?

My goodness. Whatever are we to beleive out of that book anyhow?

(And, moreover, why the heck does anyone believe it enough to try and convince others to believe it? :huh: )

Lucretius · 10-15-2007, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinJay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucretius

That is the reason given in the NT
HOWEVER while there was a census of Judaea there was no requirement for people to "return to their ancestral home" in ANY example of Roman census taking.
The census was primarily a list for taxation purposes and as such would want to know who "Joseph" was ,if he owned property and how much he earned, all of these would be relevant to where he was currently living and there was no reason for him to travel "back home" to give this information.
In addition just think of the chaos any such idea would cause .people would be criss crossing the entire Empire just to give the tax man his information.
The whole idea of having to return to Bethlehem is such bureaucratic nonsense that the Romans just wouldn't have done as it served no useful purpose at all.

Better yet, GLuke has the Joseph family trudging off to Bethlehem for the census. GMatt appears to have them living there all along.

The Nativity narratives in GMatt and GLuke differ in so many details that the casual reader might wonder if they're even intended to recount the same set of events.

It has often been said that it is impossible to reconcile the two Nativity accounts without inventing a lot of bridging details and performing textual gymnastics of an Olympic caliber.

regards,

NinJay

Thats the thing the writer of Luke has to come up with some reason for getting them to Bethlehem to "fulfill prophecy ",so has invented this whole census nonsense,showing incidentally complete ignorance of Roman bureaucracy and, dare I say, a lack of common sense .
For such a supposedly divinely inspired work the NT (if not the Bible as a whole ) shows signs of really needing a good editor

-Jay- · 10-15-2007, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hex

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinJay

The Nativity narratives in GMatt and GLuke differ in so many details that the casual reader might wonder if they're even intended to recount the same set of events.

It has often been said that it is impossible to reconcile the two Nativity accounts without inventing a lot of bridging details and performing textual gymnastics of an Olympic caliber.

regards,

NinJay

WHAT?

Different birth accounts? Different resurrection accounts?

How could it be?

My goodness. Whatever are we to beleive out of that book anyhow?

(And, moreover, why the heck does anyone believe it enough to try and convince others to believe it? :huh: )

Because they don't read it, my friend. I continue to be surprised at how many extremely conservative Christians haven't read the book they stake everything on cover to cover. I'm more surprised that they don't consider this to be a problem...

regards,

NinJay

Buck Laser · 10-15-2007, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purple_kathryn

I know my friend has asserted that there are records of a Jesus at that time so I think this one of those common assumptions among xians

This is the first time I ever heard that. My impression is that the only extant extrabiblical reference to Jesus is supposed to have been in Josephus's work, but the historicity of that has been questioned.

Minimalist · 10-15-2007, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Even if true, the claim doesn't contain enough specificity to be interesting, let alone to be proof of the historicity of the Biblical Jesus.

Fundies don't require much in the way of proof. They have a disposition to believe nonsense if it suits their purpose.

purple_kathryn · 10-15-2007, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Laser

Quote:

Originally Posted by purple_kathryn

I know my friend has asserted that there are records of a Jesus at that time so I think this one of those common assumptions among xians

This is the first time I ever heard that. My impression is that the only extant extrabiblical reference to Jesus is supposed to have been in Josephus's work, but the historicity of that has been questioned.

Perhaps we should so a survey of xians? "Do you think there are records that show a person called jesus existed?"

-Jay- · 10-16-2007, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purple_kathryn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Laser

This is the first time I ever heard that. My impression is that the only extant extrabiblical reference to Jesus is supposed to have been in Josephus's work, but the historicity of that has been questioned.

Perhaps we should so a survey of xians? "Do you think there are records that show a person called jesus existed?"

How about:

"Do you think that there are undisputed extrabiblical records that show that the Jesus referred to in the Bible existed?"

regards,

NinJay

purple_kathryn · 10-16-2007, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinJay

Quote:

Originally Posted by purple_kathryn

Perhaps we should so a survey of xians? "Do you think there are records that show a person called jesus existed?"

How about:

"Do you think that there are undisputed extrabiblical records that show that the Jesus referred to in the Bible existed?"

regards,

NinJay

Yep that'd be much clearer - where should we survey?

Lucretius · 10-16-2007, 04:46 AM

Even if we did by some fluke of history have a copy of the relevant census how on earth could Jesus be identified ?
I mean it would hardly say

Joseph - Carpenter
Mary -Wife and still a Virgin (Honest !)
Jesus- Son Of The One True God and Saviour of Mankind

-Jay- · 10-16-2007, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purple_kathryn

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinJay

How about:

"Do you think that there are undisputed extrabiblical records that show that the Jesus referred to in the Bible existed?"

regards,

NinJay

Yep that'd be much clearer - where should we survey?

I suggest a new thread here in BC&H, as it goes to the H part of the forum, and it may get more visibility here than in EOG.

You're gonna have a PM in a few minutes.

regards,

NinJay

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10-16-2007, 04:46 AM	#29
Lucretius Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: . Posts: 1,014	Even if we did by some fluke of history have a copy of the relevant census how on earth could Jesus be identified ? I mean it would hardly say Joseph - Carpenter Mary -Wife and still a Virgin (Honest !) Jesus- Son Of The One True God and Saviour of Mankind

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