Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Adonael · 05-09-2008, 08:46 PM

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1. Hell exists, and God doesn't love the people He sends to hell, therefore his love for them must be conditional. This is true because in order for God to love unconditionally He must love regardless of person, place (earth, heaven, hell), or time. I already outlined why I believe sending people to hell is immoral, but you attempted the following criticism:

I'm not interested in anything else but the keystone bolded commentary.

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The reason the analogy makes sense is because the bible makes explicitly clear that God is good, and unless you want to render that a meaningless tautology that says nothing significant about God's character, there must be a point of similarity between a good God and a good man. Otherwise we can't make any sense of the statement "God is good." The bible also makes clear (I John 4:7-8 for instance) that God is love. It even takes pains to explain to us what love is in I Corinthians 13:4-8. I do not think these characteristics are consistent with sending someone to hell, fire or not.

The responses I can take are vast. I can qualify "God is good" to speak of moral virtues of God or prudentially rather than with normativity. Also, God's Law and Morality, Stephen R. L. Clark The Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. 32, No. 129. (Oct., 1982), pp. 339-347 deals with this objection too.

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When you love someone, you want what's best for them, and when in your power, do what's best for them. God, on the other hand, seems to defy Kant and use people as a means to prove his power rather than as ends in themselves. That's fine, God can do what He wants, but He doesn't love in any sense of the word that we would recognize.

Who's "we"? Author OLIVER D. CRISP in his DIVINE RETRIBUTION: A DEFENCE,Sophia, Vol. 42, No. 2, October 2003 argues that youre wrong. So, who is "we"?

Toto · 05-09-2008, 10:46 PM

So far, I don't see much discussion of Biblical Criticism or History.

MFP or GRD?

ryanm · 05-10-2008, 06:21 AM

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I'm not interested in anything else but the keystone bolded commentary.

I think that a lot rests on this issue as well.

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The responses I can take are vast. I can qualify "God is good" to speak of moral virtues of God or prudentially rather than with normativity. Also, God's Law and Morality, Stephen R. L. Clark The Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. 32, No. 129. (Oct., 1982), pp. 339-347 deals with this objection too.

Who's "we"? Author OLIVER D. CRISP in his DIVINE RETRIBUTION: A DEFENCE,Sophia, Vol. 42, No. 2, October 2003 argues that youre wrong. So, who is "we"?

By using we, I was referring to how I think most people with a conventional understanding of love (who haven't already been conditioned to or made a commitment to the bible) would initially respond to the idea that this everyday thing called love is consistent with sending someone to hell. I admit that I could be wrong on this and maybe my gut feelings are actually oddball and not the norm. I also am allowing the possibility that the inconsistency could be resolved through a more complex or nuanced argument (in contrast to what people may simply feel is moral), but that's precisely the thing I would need to examine one step at a time. I am very interested in the articles you referenced, but unfortunately I won't have access to those until I return to work on Monday, and "qualifying God is good...prudentially rather than with normativity" doesn't give me much to respond to, so I'm going to go enjoy our nice weekend weather while it lasts.

I'd enjoy knowing the arguments you'd use to support what I (at least personally) see as the more surprising claim, that unconditional love is consistent with sending people to hell. Unless my memory fails me, I don't think that's been discussed.

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05-09-2008, 10:46 PM	#32
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	So far, I don't see much discussion of Biblical Criticism or History. MFP or GRD?

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