Jehanne

Why do some people "hear" colors and "see" sounds?

Patriot7

I deserve it as much as the next man.

What do you think Christ meant by "take heed that no man deceive you". If you were a Christian how would you avoid being deceived?

What do you think the Father's will is?

No. I don't believe that. (pardon the pun) God can't make square circles, rocks he can't lift and by definition He can't break His promise that whosoever should repent and call upon the name of His Son shall be saved.

If you died tonight would you go to heaven aa5874?

Patriot

Haran

Ah...but I didn't say it did. See, my postings may not really apply to you. Please do read all of my posts, though, if you haven't. I am mainly directing my attentions toward those atheists/agnostics who believe they somehow have the higher moral ground. They would be wrong.

I don't intend insult, but I wonder if you see the irony in this statement from a Christian or theist point of view? If not, I'll let you in on the secret.

This still does not take into account the fact that this impinges on their happiness... Either way, just to elaborate a little, I love the parent/child relationship examples when it comes to God because I believe it is very simlar.

Then I would call you an agnostic and not an atheist, for the very name atheist means a (no) theos (God). You are denying the existence of God(s) with the very label that you brand yourself.

If you care, read some of my first posts in this thread on how I came back to religion and why. I do not find agnosticism a good answer...in fact, it really is no answer at all...almost by definition.

Ok, so you would not. You can say that you can't judge their happiness, but if you ever visit Africa and see tears streaming down a malnourished child's face, I think you will know unhappy when you see it.

What if they were a burden to you and their unhappiness was affecting your own happiness? They would become evil according to your definitions, would they not? If you were in such a position as to eliminate this evil burden to your happiness, would you? If not, then I think you are beginning to see some of the holes and flaws in atheism/agnosticism that I am trying to point out to Johnny and others like him.

From an atheistic/agnostic viewpoint, why? In all seriousness? What does it benefit you? Why would you even think of someone else (aside from the fact that you currently live in a society that looks favorably upon such a thing)? After all, it decreases the amount of personal gain for you.

Are you beginning to see the "evil" and "immoral" potential in atheism/agnosticism? It is there...

What people around them? If they were all suffering and a burden to you, you have the potential to do away with them all so that only happy, "good" people will live and multiply.

Quite a strange statement for an agnostic.

See how depressing agnosticism is as well? You die and that's it. There is no thought, no memory of loved ones...everything you ever enjoyed in life is forgotten and nothing you did will matter because you will be gone...

Yet, if you are me, you feel like...hey, wait...I am ME....I am a thinking person...everything I've learned, all the memories I've accumulated, will they really just go poof into nothingness? Then, what is the point of even living any of it? Kirillov, a character in one of Dostoyevsky's novels saw the point and killed himself...doesn't really matter if it took some thought...that was his ultimate decision.

The good news, at least to me, is that you don't have to live with that emptiness and that flawed world-view. There are alternatives that make more sense and provide purpose and objective truth (if you should decide to have faith in a God).

Patriot7

Exactly because they aren't physical!! You're proving my point beautifully. Colors have a texture in our conscious, independant of the tinted light they reflect from a fabric or a canvas.

DBT

Objective reality is not enough? - The real question is, why do we have the psychological need to turn to make-believe as a source of comfort?

Faith is choosing to believe in something for which there is insufficient evidence to do so. As simply believing in something does not make that something true,faith is nothing more than a form of self deception motivated by our desires and insecurities.

aa5874

That's not a question for me. You are the one who believe in heaven and I know that you don't know what will happen if you die tonight. You have no idea what happens to a dead person, absolutely none, other than rotting. Why are you so scared of death? Everybody's going to die. Oh ye of little faith!!

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Haran: You never replied to my post #24, so here it is again. I also request that Patriot7 reply to it.

As you wish.

Item #1

To what extent would a loving God go in order to keep people out of hell? The correct answer is that a loving God would make sure that there was as little doubt as possible regarding his existence and will, and we know that the God of the Bible has not come anywhere close to doing that.

Has God done all that he can to insure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell? Most certainly not.

The Bible says that God is loving, which means that for him to fairly ask people to love him he must first reasonably prove that he is loving.

God's priorities are indeed suspect, and suggest that he does not exist. A loving God's #1 priority would have to be insuring that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell. God has not done that. Today, if Jesus made some more appearances, surely some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced, and surely they deserve that chance. Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and other historical characters, attracted lots of followers based upon much less evidence that the miracles that the Bible attributes to Jesus.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Matthew 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.

Mark 8:2-3 I have compassion on the multitude, because they have now been with me three days, and have nothing to eat: And if I send them away fasting to their own houses, they will faint by the way: for divers of them came from far.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Johnny: Are you going to try to tell me that Jesus had compassion upon people because of their brief, temporal needs for physical healing and food, and suffered on the cross for mankind, and yet God refuses to do all that he can in order to insure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell? A loving God who was willing to give mankind something that cost him a lot would surely be much more willing to give mankind something that would cost him little, namely sending Jesus back to earth to make some more appearances. God could not possibly have anything to lose by doing that, and surely mankind would have much to gain.

Item #2

Many Christians claim that there is a lot of evidence other than faith that reasonably proves that the Bible should be trusted, but they would surely reject THE VERY SAME EVIDENCE if the evidence said that everyone would go to hell. In other words, the number of eyewitnesses, the number of gospels, or the number of copies of ancient manuscripts would not matter at all, in fact, even if the evidence was TWICE AS GOOD as the evidence that is found in the Bible.

Regardless of the evidence, self-interest ALWAYS presumes that whenever a person is confronted by evidence that claims that he will go to hell, it is best to argue against the evidence, or if a person is uncertain to hope that the evidence was wrong. There would be no possible advantage in doing otherwise.

If a powerful being came from outer space, claimed be a God other than the God of the Bible, demonstrated FIRSTHAND in front of everyone in the world, not hearsay evidence like in the Bible, that he could destroy a mountain in one second, said that he was going to destroy the earth in six months, and left the earth, most Christians would hope that the supposed God would somehow not be able to carry out his threat. On the other hand, if a being from outer space came to earth, claimed that he was Jesus, and demonstrated THE EXACT SAME POWERS, Christians would hope, in fact assume, that the being was actually Jesus. It is interesting to note that even if that being was an imposter, as long as he provided Christians with a comfortable eternal life, that would be fine with them. Eternal comfort is the prize completely regardless of who provides it.

Hypothetical arguments are often excellent means of revealing inconsistent arguments. Christians frequently use them whenever they believe that it suits their purposes to do so. A good example is C. S. Lewis’ ‘Lord, Liar, or Lunatic.’ Evidence that cannot be consistently applied is not evidence at all.

You speak harshly about atheists (I am an agnostic), but the vast majority of people in the world are religious people. In addition, many non-Christians are much more moral than the typical Christian is. Further, the largest colonial empire in history by far under a single religion was conquered by Christian nations by means of persecution, murder, and theft of property, actions that were completely contrary to the teachings in the New Testament. At any rate, the Bible does not teach that a person can go to heaven on good conduct alone. I submit that God does not have good conduct. For instance, Exodus 4:11 says "And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?" How utterly detestible. Why do you justify such awful behavior? Possibly because you are afraid to contest one single thing that God does lest you go to hell?

Do you believe that might makes right? What evidence do you have that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfect? Are you an inerrantist? If so, where is your evidence? If not, how do you pick which Scriptures are inerrant?

Johnny Skeptic

If you will agree that moral behavior is behavior that does not harm other people in unfair ways, then my position is that there is not any evidence that generally, professing Christians have better behavior than atheists/agnostics do. A poll by the Barna research group, which is a Christian evangelical group, showed that Baptists have a higher divorce rate than atheists do. In Denmark, the divorce rate among heterosexuals is higher than among homosexuals. Some Buddhists are very moral people, as are many of the follows of other religions. There are plenty of professing Christians in prison. Paul told the Corinthians that they were doing bad things that even the gentiles did not do, but he still called them brothers. David had Bath-Sheba's husband Uriah the Hittite killed because he wanted her as his wife, and he also touched the Ark of the Covenant, which was forbidden by God. God forgave him of both offenses.

Consider the following:

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

Dear Mr. Swift:

The Federal Bureau of Prisons does have statistics on religious
affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of
inmates per religion category:

Response Number %

Catholic 29267 39.164%
Protestant 26162 35.008%
Muslim 5435 7.273%
American Indian 2408 3.222%
Nation 1734 2.320%
Rasta 1485 1.987%
Jewish 1325 1.773%
Church of Christ 1303 1.744%
Pentecostal 1093 1.463%
Moorish 1066 1.426%
Buddhist 882 1.180%
Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%
Adventist 621 0.831%
Orthodox 375 0.502%
Mormon 298 0.399%
Scientology 190 0.254%
Atheist 156 0.209%
Hindu 119 0.159%
Santeria 117 0.157%

I hope that this information is helpful to you.

Sincerely,

Denise Golumbaski
Research Analyst
Federal Bureau of Prisons

Johnny: What about that, Haran? Percentage wise, atheists comprise a much smaller percentage of the prison population than Christians do.

The Bible does not promise that anyone will go to heaven just by being moral.

Haran

Thank you, Johnny, for finally (after what seemed like pulling teeth), although indirectly, admitting in one of your dozen or so threads that your morality is subjective. You have no NO grounds except your own, subjective opinions upon which to condemn Christianity. Your belief system is irrational and full of logical holes that you refuse to see, yet you pound and pound away at Christianity. One might think you have an agenda....LOL... Later...I'm done chasing you from thread to thread now that you have admitted what I was after. :wave:

DBT

Non sequitur - in any case, the foundation of christianity does not rest on an absolute moral code. Are you aware of some of the dodgy God given ethics in the OT? And the NT, for that matter.