Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amaleq13 · 07-22-2004, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Llyricist

I think it fits the idea of agriculture triumphing over nomadic husbandry.

I like this one too but maybe only because I first heard it from a talking gorilla in Daniel Quinn's Ishmael.

Cubeless Academian · 07-22-2004, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Paine

Where did Cain go, after God banished him?

The land of Nod, east of Eden (Gen. 4:16). Eden was apparently in or near what is now Iraq (see references to the Tigris and Euphrates in Gen. 2), so maybe Nod was in Iran or central Asia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Paine

I realize this is a familiar, perhaps hackneyed, objection to the veracity of Genesis;

Actually, I don't see what the problem is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Paine

Where did his wife come from?

Must have been a sister or niece who moved to Nod with him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Paine

Evidently, this land east of Eden had a developed civilization.

Why do you say that?

Quote:

Also, who was Cain worried about killing him? Wasn't his family the only clan around?

Yes, but his family was also Abel's family, so perhaps he was right to fear revenge.

Disclaimer: I'm an atheist, and I certainly don't believe that Cain ever really existed. I'm just playing devil's advocate because I don't think this particular issue makes a very good argument against inerrancy.

Dr_Paine · 07-23-2004, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cubeless Academian

Disclaimer: I'm an atheist, and I certainly don't believe that Cain ever really existed. I'm just playing devil's advocate because I don't think this particular issue makes a very good argument against inerrancy.

To be sure, the Cain fable is not the most devastating critique of inerrancy. Moreover, as I posted earlier:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Paine

Those who claim Adam lived 930 years do have a convenient 'explanation.'

The 930 years would certainly allow for a fairly expansive clan. Of course, you and I both believe it is a fable anyway.

I suppose however the inerrantist could grasp at one ridiculous notion to support another. :banghead:

Amlodhi · 07-23-2004, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cubeless Academian

The land of Nod, east of Eden (Gen. 4:16).

Interestingly though, Gen. 4:16 is the only place where the term "Nod" is used as a proper name. Apparently, this noun form is derived from the verbal homonym "nod", which simply means "wandering'.

IOW, Cain dwelt in the "land of wandering".

gregor · 07-23-2004, 05:43 AM

The apologist's cite is the paradigm example of "just so" stories - convoluted attempts to say how it could have occurred despite the patent absurdities in the argument.

Clivedurdle · 07-23-2004, 09:08 AM

The comments about husbandry and crop rearing are possibly more dangerous for inerrancy.

According to Timelines of the ancient World, fire dates back 460,000 years, but may be a million years old.

Specialised open air slaughter camps in Southern France for efficient hunting with bones representing hundreds of tons of meat are fifty thousand years old. Harvesting wild cereals occurred 19,000 years ago - site near Lake Galilee.

Jericho at 8,000 BC - ten thousand years ago - covered 2 and a half hectares and was farming properly.

Farming established between 13 and 8 thousand years ago in the fertile Crescent, China, South East Asia and the Americas - separately!

We were unlikely to ever have been vegetarians - our teeth contradict that - and 900 year life of Adam is a bit quick for all the changes needed to evolve agriculture!

Clivedurdle · 07-23-2004, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Around 9000 BC after millenia of harvesting wild cereals and hunting, the inhabitants of the Middle East began cultivating wheat and barley and domesticating livestock. At first, the asiatic muoflon and bezoar goat ( the wild ancestors of sheep and goats) were simply herded. Later they were bred selectively and changes in their size occurred. These changes have been observed in bones discovered at archaeological sites. Similarly, through selective harvesting and planting, new varieties of cereals evolved. This change from hunting and gathering to farming ensured a supply of food throughout the year, and made it possible for people to develop a new settled way of life in farming villages. This served as the basis from which all later civilisations would arise.

Time Lines of the Ancient world ISBN 07513 00594

Toto · 07-23-2004, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Time Lines of the Ancient world ISBN 0751300594

also by the same author but more affordable and available:

Smithsonian Timelines of the Ancient World

Jon Promnitz · 07-23-2004, 11:35 AM

I wonder what sister would have liked to marry him. He did kill her brother you know. I bet she was a little upset.

Mageth · 07-23-2004, 11:37 AM

Where did Cain go? I'm pretty sure that Darwin killed him...

07-23-2004, 09:08 AM	#16
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	it will no longer yield its crops for you The comments about husbandry and crop rearing are possibly more dangerous for inerrancy. According to Timelines of the ancient World, fire dates back 460,000 years, but may be a million years old. Specialised open air slaughter camps in Southern France for efficient hunting with bones representing hundreds of tons of meat are fifty thousand years old. Harvesting wild cereals occurred 19,000 years ago - site near Lake Galilee. Jericho at 8,000 BC - ten thousand years ago - covered 2 and a half hectares and was farming properly. Farming established between 13 and 8 thousand years ago in the fertile Crescent, China, South East Asia and the Americas - separately! We were unlikely to ever have been vegetarians - our teeth contradict that - and 900 year life of Adam is a bit quick for all the changes needed to evolve agriculture!

07-23-2004, 11:35 AM	#19
Jon Promnitz Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: USA Posts: 60	... I wonder what sister would have liked to marry him. He did kill her brother you know. I bet she was a little upset.

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07-23-2004, 05:43 AM	#15
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	The apologist's cite is the paradigm example of "just so" stories - convoluted attempts to say how it could have occurred despite the patent absurdities in the argument.

07-23-2004, 11:37 AM	#20
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Where did Cain go? I'm pretty sure that Darwin killed him...

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