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While we are on Sumer, if one can get hold of Samuel Noah Kramer's "History Begins at Sumer", he'll give you the reason for the first woman's name and thus tell you why Eve was created out of Adam's rib.


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Mike(ATL)

I'm not criticizing Biff for his dismissal of the validity of the entire Bible based on Genesis. If Genesis in fact is unbelievable I would find the rest of the Bible to be unbelievable. I think you're giving me too much credit for having some kind of master plan. All I really wanted to do was answer the criticisms of Genesis which I can see now for the most part I am unprepared to do.

Ok, fine, that's what a myth is. I really did not intend for this to the focus of the discussion. Maybe I said some things I shouldn't have. Surely you can't deny that the general sentiment around here is that Genesis is "pure fiction." And thanks for the "facts to consider," I will consider them. I've never considered myself among the hard-line crowd that knows exactly how old the earth is. Admittedly I haven't done the research into this area I probably should. I think I will do that in the future.

I'll be sure to investigate that for myself in the future. I am yet to hear evidence to convince me that we can really know how old the universe is but that might be because I have not listened to the right people. Honestly, I will try to find time to investigate this for myself.

Yeah, sorry I don't really like you. I'm not Magus, stop treating me like him. My name is Mike, nice to meet you.

If you're not reading Genesis for the purpose of finding flaws it makes perfect sense. The first chapter describes the process. The second is more focused on the garden and what happened there.

You're right, I haven't researched a lot of this as much as it appears many of you have. I'm simply not equipped to speak with you all about things that I don't know that much about. I think I'll leave this stuff for the Genuine Scienticians (tm). Sorry to bail on some of this but you all have made it obvious to me that I am unequipped on this front. You'll probably never let me live this down but I can only be honest.

Mageth

You'll probably never let me live this down but I can only be honest.

I think you'll find such honesty to be highly respected for the most part around here.

I, for one, commend your honesty.

Toto

History Begins at Sumer - out of print but some cheap used copies

also by the same author

The Sumerians: Their History, Culture, and Character

History Begins at Sumer: Thirty-Nine "Firsts" in Recorded History

Doctor X

"Slings and arrows . . . slings and arrows!"

"How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child!"

[Cue violins.--Ed.]

Here I try to impart kind remonstration, direction towards true gnosis, an appreciation of finer things, and a recognition of the abomination that is country-western music.

Yet are my nice labours scorn'd and besmirch'd! Directs Seed to bring him his hanky and stuffed Scrat-doll for comfort.

Then one would do well to cease behaving like Magus.

I rais'd the specter of Magus in reference to a challenge I gave him . . . and then passed to this individual. Perchance "challenge" was the wrong word, carrying with it a connotation of conflict. Basically, I wish'd Magus to attack the evidence specifically. I carried on this wish for this individual. That he scorneth my kind concern . . . my hopes . . . dreams . . . and fantasies [Stop that.--Ed.] is . . . like . . . really not nice.

To Reiterate:

The individual confesses ignorance of the basics of science and biblical scholarship. Fair enough. Posters have refer'd him to rather concise and clear basics to remedy this ignorance. I would think, then, prior to becoming petulent and continuing to make sweeping generalization, the individual would avail himself of these references.

The issue with Magus is that--given these references--often posted with excruciating detail--he ignores them. If the individual does not wish to be perceived as that he would do well to behave otherwise.

Again, [ZZZZzzzzZZZZzzzzZZZzzz.--Ed.] he may, indeed, read Who Wrote the Bible? and declare the whole multi-authorship theory a crock, but at least he would be able to address/refute/attack the evidence.

--J.D.

Kosh

Would this perchance mean that you will cease and desist from witnessing and evangelizing to unbelievers until you have actually researched the claims of your religion?

I s'pose that would be too much to ask...

Doctor X

As always, trust a Vorlon to make the point succinctly. . . .

--J.D.

Philosoft

I must concur. We tend to appreciate the ability to admit error, as it seems to be a rare thing, indeed.

Asha'man

Talk to some actual astronomers, since they are the experts in this stuff. Read a textbook on astronomy. Watch the science news.
Pictures of the young universe
Trace gas dates Universe’s first stars
Fading White Dwarfs
I’ve always found this to be fascinating stuff, and could read up on it all day long.

Astronomy starts out as a very difficult science, since you can’t experiment, only observe. But if you are careful and exacting about your observations, it’s amazing what you can learn. Don’t ever fall into the trap of thinking it isn’t science because it isn’t in a laboratory, astronomers can still make predictions about what they will see, or won’t see, and test those predictions. That is the true test of any science, the ability to make accurate predictions about what you can see, and astronomy is very strong in that area.

Actually, if you already know a little bit about cosmology, astronomy, or basics of science, then the flaws just jump right out at you, and you can’t even continue. I knew Genesis was a myth the first time I ever read it, because I had an interest in astronomy since 2nd grade. It didn’t bother me at the time since I had a very liberal Christian theology. It’s called “suspension of disbelief,” like when you are watching a movie. You know it isn’t real, but it still makes a good story. However, if the errors get too big to ignore, the whole thing comes crashing down.

Actually, I have a great deal of respect for someone who can admit ignorance. The good news is that ignorance has an easy cure: learning. I have learned a great deal here just by hanging around listening, and occasionally asking questions. I have learned how badly the Bible represents reality. I knew it had flaws, but I never knew how many.

Instead of issuing challenges, hang around and ask questions. Don’t tell us that science supports the bible, ask us where we have found problems. Don’t try to defend your beliefs, simply try to expand your knowledge. We love that type of attitude, and you will find this a much friendlier place to be, and more informative, even for a theist.

spin

Ta. I can only fire on memory at the moment. The last one seems to be the same book. I have the out of print edition elsewhere and its chapters all read "The First [something or other]".


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