DBT

How do you know what is true? There is no evidence. We are basically given a collection of contradictory statements, and it's left to us to try and make sense of them.
Much of the bible can be interpreted in a whole lot of ways, there appears to be no reliable way to determine the 'correct' interpretation.
Choose any version of christianity, and there are twenty that differs on a particular point of doctrine.


8 I speak with him directly, openly, and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD.

8 face to face I speak to him, plainly and not in riddles. The presence of the LORD he beholds. Why, then, did you not fear to speak against my servant Moses

Num. 12:8. For I speak to him mouth to mouth: and plainly, and not by riddles and figures doth he see the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak ill of my servant Moses?

mdd344

DBT,
You stated:I don't know what you mean by posting Numbers 12. But regarding Jacob, what makes you think the statements are actually real contradictions?

Granted, people can look at the same verse and believe different things. But if it is a matter God has fully revealed, then there is but one truth on it, and it can be known (Deut. 29:29; John 8:31-32).

Smullyan-esque

I'd like to see us return to this topic.

WHY do you not start from the assumption that the Quran is inerrant before you analyze it, mdd344? There must be some reason, and if it is a GOOD reason, then it seems that it would be beneficial for the rest of us to know this reason.

diana

What a coincidence! Many if not most of us are equally convinced that you, who claim to know these things, do not understand much of the Bible basic teaching to begin with. I (and others) also feel you are sincere in many respects about what you believe, also.

Here's the thing: how can we know who is right? Do we go with the person who presupposes he is correct no matter what and rejects all arguments outright and often without any support, or do we go with the person who has approached the text like any other, with an open mind with no preconceptions, then drawn conclusions [i]and is willing and able to produce support for his position?

Would you follow the guy who assumed the Quran was true, or the one who approached the text critically with no preconceived notions?

(I note with interest how much you have avoided addressing this argument against your position, even though many people have made it and it is right on target with your presupposition of the Bible's inspiration. I think you're afraid of this argument.)

d

RAFH

Straight to the point, how do you, mdd344, know your interpretation is right?
How can you justify your knowledge?
Are we to simply accept your word on it?
Is that your contention?
We are to simply accept your word for it?

If that is the case, why should we accept your word and nobody else's?
What makes your word any better than anybody else's?

You not only want us to accept the bible without question but accept your interpretation without question and your word that you are correct without question.
Where does it stop?

At some point there has to be hard evidence that establishes the reality.
You offer none.
None at all.

Sven

Then why don't you tell us how one can fell face first after having hung oneself?

Why is there are need for more than a "surface reading", as you call us? I asked you once, I ask you again: Why is an omnipotent being not able to provide a book without contradictions at a surface-reading-level?

Umm, you sometimes act this way.

:huh: Does this include verses like "God does not lie"?
And how do you differentiate between lies and truth in the bible?

Given that the serpent speaks the truth in Genesis, one could easily argue that Genesis is a tale told by Satan to make your god look bad. How do you counter this?

Umm, you've not shown that you know the type of languages either. At least you've not provided an argument anywhere why Genesis should be read literally.

Not at all. We make fun only after it's clear to everyone that you've lost the argument.

I've seen no one talking to you making this argument. Please link to the post where this happened. My reasons for not believing in the god of the bible are different; it was only years after my deconversion that I got even aware what a load of drivel the bible really is.

Sounds like your treatment of science - you accept what creationists say about geology without having a clue yourself.

Only if it's available in his native tongue. For some reason, your god waited 1500 years before he got the idea to inspire Luther to a translation.

No preacher ever told me 'go check it out for yourself.'

Sven

This is the height of absurdity. How on Earth would you accept that there are real contradictions in the bible if you always start with the conclusion that there are no contradictions?
The above is sufficient evidence to question the premise of inerrancy!!!!!

Sven

How do you call people who are commonly called Christians, but don't believe in inerrancy?

Problem is of course that you posed a false trilemma there. Those are not the only options. There are plenty of scholars, who are Christians be every definition of the word except yours, but nevertheless fully agree that the bible is not inerrant.

Neither. It's as simple as this: The writer of the text is to blame. Or the compilators of the different texts, who chose two texts which contradict each other. No one suggests you should blame god.

Problem is of course that these people claim exactly the same about you. Now please try for a moment to look at this situation from above - this most simple explanation for this fact is that one can read anything in the bible one wants to find there.

Yup, exactly. You are reading your presuppositions into the bible - how on Earth are you then able to decide that you are right and the 3/4 of the evangelical world is wrong?

False analogy. Your math book was not inspired by an omnipotent being.