Freethought & Rationalism Archive

06-08-2004, 08:20 AM

Green,

Sorry if I miscontrued your point. In my defence this board has recently been clogged up by a good many 'aren't Christians stupid' threads that have dragged the tone down markedly.

B

dado · 06-08-2004, 08:35 AM

i'm confused what the point is here. are you trying to construct a documentable "crimeline" from the horror show of an original list? ok, that seems fair. in that case, i stronly object to your(?) claim that the x'ian trinity is based on Jewish teaching.

Quote:

325 Nicean Creed ... and the idea of the Trinity is founded in Jewish ideas long before this time.

it may be based on non-Jewish interpretation of Jewish texts, but it most assuredly is not based in Jewish tradition. if it were, there would be a Deca-inity, not a Trinity, since the misread metaphors consisted of 10 G-dly aspects, not 3.

Toto · 06-08-2004, 12:05 PM

I have not gone through the entire list, but I notice at the end that a lot of charges are dismissed as "POLITICAL". How is this a defense? Are Christians absolved of blame if they act for political motives? In most of those cases, politics and religion are intertwined.

I would also object to this:

Quote:

1998 Alabama bomber Christian fundamentalist Eric Rudolph becomes FBI's most wanted fugitive after Alabama abortion clinic bombing leaves 1 policeman dead and 1 nurse critically wounded. Irrelevant. Defining Rudolph as "Christian" is ludicrous.

This is not irrelevant. The murderers and thugs who bomb abortion clinics consider themselves Christian and derive their motives from Christianity. You may not consider them to be "True" Christians, but I am sure that they would return the favor with your beliefs and practices.

06-08-2004, 02:03 PM

Toto's criticism has a lot of merit and there are certainly cases where I am not comfortable with the 'political' label. Theologically, I fear it does not give adequate ground to the fact that all Christians (and everyone else) are sinners and continue to be so even after conversion. On the other hand, the list attempts to tar all Christians with the same brush and hence some reply is necessary. I would prefer something along the lines of "This man may have believed he was acting as a Christian but few would agree with him. To include his unrepresentative act as an indictment of Christianity per se is invalid." Killing people due to faith is hardly new and the project is not intended to whitewash Christianity.

As the project continues I may try to amend some of the treatments although it is not really up to me.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

dado · 06-08-2004, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

I would prefer something along the lines of "This man may have believed he was acting as a Christian but few would agree with him. To include his unrepresentative act as an indictment of Christianity per se is invalid."

imo that would introduce another vector for error. more important than whether or not x'ians would agree with it *now* is whether or not x'ians agreed with it in the moment. few modern x'ians would support another crusade: few contemeraneous c'ians opposed the crusades.

jdlongmire · 06-08-2004, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dado

imo that would introduce another vector for error. more important than whether or not x'ians would agree with it *now* is whether or not x'ians agreed with it in the moment. few modern x'ians would support another crusade: few contemeraneous c'ians opposed the crusades.

I, for one, admire the tone of this thread (with noted exceptions)...

...but wonder if there is a "List of Crimes done in the name of Atheism or in support of Natural Selection" and could it be seperated from politics?

Mosor · 06-08-2004, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire

I, for one, admire the tone of this thread (with noted exceptions)...

...but wonder if there is a "List of Crimes done in the name of Atheism or in support of Natural Selection" and could it be seperated from politics?

It would be extremely difficult since most major events are intertwined with politics. For example you have the infamous plot against jewish physicians by Stalin. Why did Stalin hate jews? Was it because of his atheism? It's difficult to say for sure. Stalin's own daughter stated that:

"His anti-Semitism surely originated from the long years of struggle with Trotsky and his supporters,. What was originally political hate gradually became a feeling of racial hatred against all Jews, without exception."

So irreligion isn't really a guarantee against intolerance.

Buckster · 12-16-2004, 08:16 PM

Bede (or whomever is responsible),

I notice that you've put this on the page:

Quote:

Ignoramuses lurk among us. They could be working at your kid's school, smiling at you condescendingly from their terminal, or selling you moonshine history on your computer. They're called Skeptical historical revisionsists, and the following list, apparently once taken from a pseudonymous Australian with no specified credentials in any field, has been kept alive by one "Buck Cash" and a few others, and their actions have been more uncritical and amateurish than the Roman Piso theory. Want proof? Just read through the "hundreds of thousands" (ahem) of citations listed below as "committed by Christian preachers, teachers, priests and believers over the past 2000 years." Many are false. Many are half-truths. Many have no discernible connection to Christianity. Almost all are given with no documentation. Whatever they are, it's sure as heck clear that low-level critics like "Buck Cash" will swallow nonsense like this hook, line and sinker. We'll be working on this list for quite a while, but here's what we have so far. Special thanks go to Tekton Research Assistant "Punkish" as well as to Venerable Bede, a Ph. D. student in history, and Roger Pearse of tertullian.org.

Meanwhile, you've left out the section on my page where I wrote to let folks know that it should not be taken at face value, and that I do NOT "swallow this hook, line and sinker":

Quote:

A note about the Christian Crimeline from Buckster...

I first came across the Crimeline while searching material related to the inquisition, witch burning, etc. I found it to be such a unique source, that I decided I wanted to keep it handy, and saved a copy of it to my hard drive, as I do many pages, for that purpose.

Often, when I want to reference a particular page in a forum post or email or other writing, I simply go to the folder on my hard drive where I keep this stuff, do a search with a keyword or two I recall from it, and pull it up. Then I look at the source code for it, which reveals the URL it was saved from. From there, I can copy and paste it to direct my reader to the page on the internet where I found it.

Saving it also serves another purpose for me. Just in case the original page gets taken down for some reason, I still have the data. That's just what happened with TCC. At some point, I went to use the original URL, which was http://www.antichrist.com.au/crimeline.html and I checked before posting to make sure it was still there. It wasn't. Googling it only revealed a couple dozen pages that linked to the original that was no longer up.

So, I decided to host it on my web site, at least temporarily until the original comes back up again (if ever). That's why people are now finding the URL for it is http://www.buckcash.com/opinions/tem..._Crimeline.htm

As such, I have the ability to make changes to it in order to make it more accurate, and will gladly do so with the help of those who can demonstrate what should be changed and why. Dates or numbers may be inaccurate. Things may need to be deleted from it. Things perhaps might be added to it. I'd also like very much to use links on it to point to creditable sources associated with the individual bits of information. Though they are 'dead' at this writing, I've left the links on it, just as they were on the original, in hopes that the original site with it may come back online at some point in the future.

Unfortunately, I have very little time in my schedule at present to undertake such a huge chore from the research side of it. However, I invite any and all to participate in the project, and would be happy to credit on the page those individuals that make a contribution to it (if they desire it) by finding and correcting errors, and providing creditable links to help with authentication of the information.

The most direct way to participate is to email me directly at: [email protected] If you choose to do so, please do not just make a statement of correction. Please provide sources to back up your new assertion, that may be referenced from here in the crimeline. Thank you.

I think this page is a really good start, but that it could be much more. With some honest inquiry, good research and solid backup of the data, it could be a really valuable source of information for all.

Because I have not researched the claims in this 'crimeline', nor have I time to do so, nor did I write it myself, I can neither make claims to it's accuracy, nor do I in any way assert that it is without error, as I think I've explained above. YOU, the reader, should keep that in mind as you go through the list. If something in particular stands out for you, or you want to reference something in particular from the list, I suggest you do the actual research to establish the credibility of that item. Directing others to THIS source as THE definitive proof of a claim would be in error, in my opinion, as the original author, with any backup that author may possess to back up these claims is not available to do so and, once again, it's not me.

One last note: If you are "ARNOUME", I would love to hear from you! What you have done here is no less than breathtaking, and I wish to give you full credit for your efforts. It was never my intent to take over or steal the crimeline for myself, but to make it possible to continue to make it accessible to others. I hope you will simply see this as a 'mirror' site for it, and look forward to your own site returning online soon.

Your research and criticism of the claims within the crimeline, which I remind you once again is not mine, will no doubt be valuable in correcting many of the errors that I acknowledged from the first on the very page I put up, where they now exist.

Your personal criticisms of me however, are yet another of the 'crimes' Christians continue to make whenever they get riled up over something they don't like - in this case, you've decided to impugn and ridicule me personally, despite the very words I used to make clear that the crimeline is not a definitive proof in itself, nor that I've personally researched it, nor that I accept the claims within it at face value.

Your decision to not include a link to my page, where folks could have seen the words I wrote that counter your claims about me personally, and the words I wrote wherein I do indeed welcome criticism and correction of the claims made within the crimeline, speak volumes about your own integrity sir.

Thank you for your contribution to the general idea that Christians are not to be trusted with imparting the whole truth.

Yours in REASON,

Buck Cash

Yellum Notnef · 12-17-2004, 10:06 AM

Classic Bede.

EverLastingGodStopper · 12-28-2004, 08:54 AM

Heh, Buckster, good to see your reply on this thread. Today I referred to the Crimeline as a good source to begin research on studying crimes of the Catholic church. Thanks for continuing to host the webpage.

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06-08-2004, 08:20 AM	#11
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	Green, Sorry if I miscontrued your point. In my defence this board has recently been clogged up by a good many 'aren't Christians stupid' threads that have dragged the tone down markedly. B

06-08-2004, 02:03 PM	#14
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	Toto's criticism has a lot of merit and there are certainly cases where I am not comfortable with the 'political' label. Theologically, I fear it does not give adequate ground to the fact that all Christians (and everyone else) are sinners and continue to be so even after conversion. On the other hand, the list attempts to tar all Christians with the same brush and hence some reply is necessary. I would prefer something along the lines of "This man may have believed he was acting as a Christian but few would agree with him. To include his unrepresentative act as an indictment of Christianity per se is invalid." Killing people due to faith is hardly new and the project is not intended to whitewash Christianity. As the project continues I may try to amend some of the treatments although it is not really up to me. Yours Bede Bede's Library - faith and reason

12-17-2004, 10:06 AM	#19
Yellum Notnef Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Gone Posts: 4,676	Classic Bede.

12-28-2004, 08:54 AM	#20
EverLastingGodStopper Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16,665	Heh, Buckster, good to see your reply on this thread. Today I referred to the Crimeline as a good source to begin research on studying crimes of the Catholic church. Thanks for continuing to host the webpage.

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