Originally Posted by David B

Trying to respond to this, I suddenly wish I were soberer.

I'll just have to do the best I can.

I had a brief period of attending Baptist services that my parents didn't send me to, when I was 10, and tried quite hard to get them to go with me.

Then I saw through Christianity, as painlessly as I saw through Santa.

The only way I can relate to your post is thinking about the process by which I, over a period of years, slowly came out of the TM cult, after I'd left a monastic life close to the core of the movement.

I'll give you one old cliche, which might sound patronising, but isn't meant to be.

Time is the great healer.

The other way I know about to get out of stuff like this is to educate yourself.

There are lots of high quality thinkers, some of whom know more than I do about their specialities than I, some of whom are better generalists than I, some of whom are better at expressing themselves than I, and all sorts of combinations of those.

These we both can learn from. I do - lots, at 58 and a happy atheist for many years. Though I'm pissed off with religin, of all sorts, because of the damage it does, or has done to people like Cat, and OIF, and Vicar Philip, and Johnny Scholar, like COAS. And like me and you.

But http://skepdic.com/ and http://www.randi.org/ are excellent places to go to to get fed a good dollop of common sense.

De programme by doing your homework, (which you can do something about) and by letting time pass, because time is needed for grieving about important things in your life that have gone, be they parents, friends or parts of your self identity.

Read the experience of others who have gone sown the same route of losing an important faith.

Look at the responses of those still stuck in their faith to deconversion.

Perhaps a good place to start would be what I shall link to below, because you have never been a mormon, but I think you might see similarities between both the escapees from mormonism and yourself, and the responses of still mormons to the exmormon site to more, not orthodox -wrong word - mainstream Christians

http://www.exmormon.org/

http://www.exmormon.org/mormonletters.htm

David B

Originally Posted by burning flames

thanks for the response. how/why did you plainly see through christianity?

Originally Posted by David B

I have a feeling that lots of people place too much emphasis on memories, written long after the event, of what a charismatic cult leader said.

Some things Jesus, if he actually was an actual person (which is my working hypothesis, despite what he Jesus mythicists say) is that that is what he was.

It seems to be common to lots of cult leaders that their followers must put them above their families.

That's in the Bible, though I forget chapter and verse.

Just the sort of thing that a charismatic cult lader would say, inductively.

David B

Originally Posted by VitalOne

Same goes for Gautama Buddha...who encouraged many to detach from their families, and abandon their families, Gautama Buddha even gave a disciple permission to commit suicide by fire and enter into the final nirvana (which is why many Buddhists protested by commiting suicide by fire)...the unknowable destination...

Also Krishna encouraged people to detach from their families, according to Krishna family life cannot go without obstacles, and it is easier for a transcendalist to achieve perfection (siddhim) in a secluded place...

I am not trying to put down any of these teachers though, I enjoy all the teachings of Jesus, Buddha, and Krishna...they're all great...

Originally Posted by David B

Or, to put it another way, they are all - insofar as they existed, and insofar as what they are reported to have said reflects what they said - they were all people people who thought their particular metaphysics important.

As did Manson, Koresh, Jones, those Heaven's Gate guys.

I'm not so sure about people like Hubbard, Chopra, Jo Smith. They might be con artists, pure and simple.

Unless or until you can explain why the people you claim are great actually are, I prefer the default position that they were fucking self important demagogues.

Insofar as they believed in the supernatural, they were out of touch with reality.

Perhaps Buddha can be excused from this criticism.

Perhaps Krishna didn't exist.

What is great about them?

David B (thinks Douglas Adams was great, and greater than anyone you have mentioned) - if they existed)

Originally Posted by burning flames

well she said she had feelings in church choir or worship that she attributed to something supernatural.

Originally Posted by VitalOne

What? Jesus Christ does not say that you either accept him or go to hell....rather he says quite the opposite...

"Now John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us."

But Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side."" (Luke 9:49-50)

According to Jesus anyone who is not against Christ, like say Gautama Buddha, Krishna, Lao Tzu, etc...is actually for Christ...

Here the Bible says non-Christians (Gentiles) may go to heaven if they performed good works:
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel" (Romans 2:14-16)

"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God" (Corinthians 10:31-32)

Therefore anyone who is actually following the teachings of Jesus Christ (not the teachings of a church or institution) would be very tolerant of people of other religions...