Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 06-07-2010, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Your response today, that we have already discussed this issue, as if it had been resolved, is inadequate, friend.

I intended no implication that we had resolved anything. All I said was that we discussed it. And we did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

You don't need to spend an hour. Two minutes of your time is plenty.

If I am to say anything useful, other than what I've already said, I will need quite a bit more than an hour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Frankly, there is not even one minute worth of evidence for any of this stuff, in my opinion.

Your opinion is noted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Where's the data to support a first century origin for Paul's epistles?

I answered that specific question the last time we discussed this.

bacht · 06-07-2010, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Thank you Toto. I appreciate that your citing the reference in no way constitutes endorsement.

I am very dissatisfied with this book.

Does Pervo acknowledge any theorization about 2nd C origins for Paul's letters, like Marcion? Does he deal with the heretical problems catholics were then facing, like the docetic heresy and the non-Jewish God issue?

Toto · 06-07-2010, 10:29 AM

Richard I. Pervo is no radical. He is a member of the Jesus Seminar and works with the standard time line of Christianity - that Paul preached in the mid first century and was martyred around 62 CE. His training is in theology, not history.

This book seems to focus on Paul's legacy after his death, in particular after the mid-second century.

aa5874 · 06-07-2010, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Richard I. Pervo is no radical. He is a member of the Jesus Seminar and works with the standard time line of Christianity - that Paul preached in the mid first century and was martyred around 62 CE. His training is in theology, not history.

This book seems to focus on Paul's legacy after his death, in particular after the mid-second century.

You mean Pervo uses Acts of the Apostles and "Church History" by Eusebius as historical sources for Paul?

The author of Acts claimed Paul preached in the mid first century.

Eusebius of "Church History" did claim Paul was martyred at around 62 CE under Nero.

Well, then Pervo ought to know that Eusebius did claim Paul was aware of gLuke and did refer to gLuke as "my gospel".

There is something radically wrong with the Church writer's own time line.

The Church don't know anything about Paul that is true.

Toto · 02-03-2011, 12:04 PM

SBL has posted a review:

http://www.bookreviews.org/pdf/7537_8226.pdf

Quote:

The thesis of this book is that the only real Paul is the dead Paul. Even though some of Paul’s actual words undoubtedly survive, the entire Pauline corpus has gone through a process of selection and editing that served the needs of varied and diverse early Christian communities. Likewise, as the author rightly points out, authorship in the ancient world had more to do with what he calls authority and orientation than it did actual textual composition (10). Hence, the writing of letters in Paul’s name testifies to the success of the Christian epistolary form, as well as his technique of letter writing. Throughout the tradition of Deutero-Pauline letters and the Acts of Paul, Paul is viewed most often as the only apostle and, as such, the apostle who speaks to all creation and commands a universal audience. Standing behind the construction of this Pauline image is the struggle for unity in the church and the desire to see Paul as the prototype of the converted and redeemed sinner who suffered as an imitator of Christ. In the post-Pauline period, Paul became the teacher of righteousness whose teaching combated false teachers and represented the church’s search for unity. Throughout this process of constructing a Pauline image, there was a concerted effort to move from the particular conditions of the letters to their universal message in order that Paul’s words might address wider and changing sets of circumstances. Over time, this Pauline tradition and the corpus that represented it was enriched and expanded, probably under the oversight of a “Pauline school,” which may have been centered in Ephesus. The collection of Pauline letters represents for Pervo the victory of the notion that Paul’s letters address believers everywhere for all time. In this universalized message, the particular circumstances and conditions of the letters receded into the background (61).

h/t Musings of Tom Verenna

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06-07-2010, 10:29 AM	#13
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Richard I. Pervo is no radical. He is a member of the Jesus Seminar and works with the standard time line of Christianity - that Paul preached in the mid first century and was martyred around 62 CE. His training is in theology, not history. This book seems to focus on Paul's legacy after his death, in particular after the mid-second century.

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