Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mdd344 · 01-02-2007, 08:23 PM

Diana,
Regarding the Quran, I have my reasons. But I cannot at this time go into that without getting further behind. The same reasons I believe that the books of the Apocrypha are not inspired btw. And, for that matter, the book of Mormon.

DBT · 01-02-2007, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdd344

Craig,
Regarding Judas, he hung himself indeed. Then, after hanging for a while, rotted and burst----or, fell and burst open. There isn't a contradiction there.

That explanation assumes too much, it simply does not say that, nor does your explanation agree with other factors in the story.

mdd344 · 01-02-2007, 08:32 PM

DBT,

Quote:

Perhaps an example?
How exactly do we aproach the following two verses? Reading the words as they written and presented, each sentence appears to make a clear and unambiuous statement - yet the respective meanings are clearly in contradiction.
Logically they just do not make sense.

"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)

"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)

I would consider the context of each. I would then consider what each verse is communicating in context.

I would also compile a list of the appearances God took when He appeared to people. In one instance He was talking from a burning bush. In another, He was a cloud. In another, He was a fire. In another He was smoke. He has taken on many forms.

What form did He take when He met with Moses? I recall that no man could see God's face and live. Yet people saw what God let them see.

So I believe no man has seen God's true face/form at any time. Christ alone has seen Him. I know the reason for that (man could not live). I also believe that God spoke with Moses face to face. So my conclusion would be that God spoke with Moses and they were very close but Moses never saw more than what the Bible calls the "back" (Ex. 33:23).

Part of the evidence to make a full decision, I believe is left out. That is, we do not know, for God did not reveal it, what He looks like (form). He is spirit, not flesh and bone as we are.

JCS · 01-02-2007, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdd344

Craig,
Regarding Judas, he hung himself indeed. Then, after hanging for a while, rotted and burst----or, fell and burst open. There isn't a contradiction there.

Excellent, if two stories negate each other, blend them into one thus preserving the delusion. Outstanding!

mdd344 · 01-02-2007, 08:35 PM

DBT,
Regarding Judas. The Bible says he hung himself, and the Bible says he fell and burst open and stuff poured out.

Now why is that a contradiction? It is entirely within the realm of feasibility for him to have hanged himself and fallen, or the rope broke, or to have rotted at the neck---whatever. The fact is both occurred.

DBT · 01-02-2007, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdd344

DBT,
So I believe no man has seen God's true face/form at any time. Christ alone has seen Him. I know the reason for that (man could not live). I also believe that God spoke with Moses face to face. So my conclusion would be that God spoke with Moses and they were very close but Moses never saw more than what the Bible calls the "back" (Ex. 33:23).

.

Yet Jacob claims otherwise, and then the little matter of the wrestling match?

Genesis 32:30 Jacob said, "I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

mdd344 · 01-02-2007, 08:43 PM

DBT,
Yet God has said that no man can see His face and live. So whatever Jacob saw, it was not His face. There is nothing in 32:30 that would allow one to say, "For sure, Jacob saw the face of God."

Now let me add something else to consider. The second person in the Godhead was active in the OT. People did see Him. Abraham did (the visit to warn about Lot, and Sodom etc.). I believe it is possible that Jacob did. Joshua did. So who was it that Jacob wrestled with? God the Father? Or God the Son? It is possible that it was God the Son.

DBT · 01-02-2007, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdd344

DBT,
There is nothing in 32:30 that would allow one to say, "For sure, Jacob saw the face of God."

Doesn't Jacob himself say it clearly enough?

"I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

To say it may have been God the son is no answer.

RAFH · 01-02-2007, 09:27 PM

I think it was god the black sheep of the family or god the retard cousin or maybe god the 'funny' uncle nobody likes to mention.

mdd344 · 01-02-2007, 09:38 PM

DBT,
See my post right above, to Rex. Then consider, what did Jacob really see, and what did he think he saw? Gather the evidence of the forms God used to appear to mankind in the OT. Gather the evidence of the appearance of the second person in the Godhead in the OT. Gather the evidence of what happens if a man saw God's face. When you gather all of the evidence, the conclusion will follow if you deal with the evidence rationally.

Saying, 'it says it' isn't an argument, as you would undoubtedly point out to me on other subjects.

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01-02-2007, 08:23 PM	#41
mdd344 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 402	Diana, Regarding the Quran, I have my reasons. But I cannot at this time go into that without getting further behind. The same reasons I believe that the books of the Apocrypha are not inspired btw. And, for that matter, the book of Mormon.

01-02-2007, 08:35 PM	#45
mdd344 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 402	DBT, Regarding Judas. The Bible says he hung himself, and the Bible says he fell and burst open and stuff poured out. Now why is that a contradiction? It is entirely within the realm of feasibility for him to have hanged himself and fallen, or the rope broke, or to have rotted at the neck---whatever. The fact is both occurred.

01-02-2007, 08:43 PM	#47
mdd344 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 402	DBT, Yet God has said that no man can see His face and live. So whatever Jacob saw, it was not His face. There is nothing in 32:30 that would allow one to say, "For sure, Jacob saw the face of God." Now let me add something else to consider. The second person in the Godhead was active in the OT. People did see Him. Abraham did (the visit to warn about Lot, and Sodom etc.). I believe it is possible that Jacob did. Joshua did. So who was it that Jacob wrestled with? God the Father? Or God the Son? It is possible that it was God the Son.

01-02-2007, 09:27 PM	#49
RAFH Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Kahaluu, Hawaii Posts: 6,400	I think it was god the black sheep of the family or god the retard cousin or maybe god the 'funny' uncle nobody likes to mention.

01-02-2007, 09:38 PM	#50
mdd344 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 402	DBT, See my post right above, to Rex. Then consider, what did Jacob really see, and what did he think he saw? Gather the evidence of the forms God used to appear to mankind in the OT. Gather the evidence of the appearance of the second person in the Godhead in the OT. Gather the evidence of what happens if a man saw God's face. When you gather all of the evidence, the conclusion will follow if you deal with the evidence rationally. Saying, 'it says it' isn't an argument, as you would undoubtedly point out to me on other subjects.

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