Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 08-23-2007, 12:33 AM

Thank you Andrew -- most interesting! I wonder what Bar Hebraeus' sources were.

Roger Pearse · 08-30-2007, 11:50 PM

I have today heard back from the Academia Belgica:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pamela Anastasio

Dear Mr Pearse,

In the Cumont archives I have found an Italian "traduzione provvisoria" of Ms. Mingana n. 142, ff. 48a-58a.

It consists of six pages typewritten and unsigned. There is no date but
some handwritten lines are added at the end of the document. Is this the
translation of the Italian scholar Giorgio Levi Della Vida, mentioned in
the Cumont paper you quote?

If you want, I can send you a copy of this document. See below Cumont
Archives conditions (in french):...

So the translation exists, albeit in Italian, and I will obtain a copy.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 08-31-2007, 01:30 AM

Further on the translation, the conditions of the Academia Belgica are rather aggressive. What I am considering doing is to obtain also the Karshuni text -- this will mean a trip to Birmingham -- and then see if I can find a scholar who will produce a public domain English translation of it, with the aid of the Italian translation, if I pay them a couple of hundred dollars to do so. (Or may be it should be more, or less?)

Roger Pearse · 08-31-2007, 02:35 AM

Does anyone have Godwin's Mystery Religions in the Ancient World. If so, any chance of a scan of p.28, where he refers to this quote? Likewise of whatever page in Freke and Gandy refers to Godwin for it? (I'm trying to tie up links in the chain).

Roger Pearse · 08-31-2007, 07:38 AM

Amazingly the Academia Belgica have already sent me the jpgs of the translation, even before I sent off the money. Good people, clearly.

God Fearing Atheist · 08-31-2007, 11:45 AM

Roger,

I sent JPGs of the relevant pages of Freke and Gandy to your Yahoo email address.

ETA: Also requested Godwin from a library in our system. Should be here in a couple days.

Are there any other putative 'pagain parallels' dependent on Godwin worth checking out while I have the book around?

Roger Pearse · 08-31-2007, 12:45 PM

I'd like to thank everyone who has responded -- looks as if its covered!

Roger Pearse · 08-31-2007, 12:53 PM

Infuriatingly, the Italian covers only ff. 48a- 58a!! It doesn't look as if it ever contained more, since the last page finishes early and Cumont has written notes on the end of it. If there is an incipit this isn't included either. The bit we want is f.59a, of course.

The god is vocalised as 'Bandaritos', in the translation.

I'm going to see if I can get the Karshuni text, and then try and pay someone to translate it. I will translate the Italian as far as it goes.

gstafleu · 08-31-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Does anyone have Godwin's Mystery Religions in the Ancient World. If so, any chance of a scan of p.28, where he refers to this quote? Likewise of whatever page in Freke and Gandy refers to Godwin for it? (I'm trying to tie up links in the chain).

I got it from the Seminary. I can scan in p28 if you want to, but I'm not sure if it is necessary. Let me quote the relevant bit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwin, p28

A Persian Mithraic text, amazingly reminiscent of Jesus' words, states that 'he who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation.'

Cetera desunt. What especially deest is a reference. The book does have a bibliography: a "Select Bibliography," with about 30 entries. One of these is Cumont, Franz, The Oriental Religions in Roman Paganism, Chicago, 1911. So who knows.

Should one rush out and buy this book? Let me add another quote from chapter IX, Mithras and Aion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwin, p99

No wonder that early Christians were disturbed by a deity who bore so close a resemblance to their own, and no wonder they considered him a mockery of Christ invented by Satan, their own Dark Lord. In a certain way they may have been right. It is my suspicion--which, unfortunately, cannot be bolstered by scholarly evidence--that Roman Mithraism was born from some clairvoyant sense of the coming of Christ, seen through the perspective of Zoroastrian dualism.

One should of course be aware of the trap of the genetic fallacy, but in some case one can be excused considering a fall into this temptation. Is a "clairvoyant sense" really better than "the devil made them do it"?

Gerard Stafleu

darstec · 08-31-2007, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

By all means try adding vowels to the front consonants, and see if you get anything recognisable. I couldn't recognise any familiar name of a deity.

So now you are pretending to understand Arabic?

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08-23-2007, 12:33 AM	#71
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Thank you Andrew -- most interesting! I wonder what Bar Hebraeus' sources were.

08-31-2007, 01:30 AM	#73
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Further on the translation, the conditions of the Academia Belgica are rather aggressive. What I am considering doing is to obtain also the Karshuni text -- this will mean a trip to Birmingham -- and then see if I can find a scholar who will produce a public domain English translation of it, with the aid of the Italian translation, if I pay them a couple of hundred dollars to do so. (Or may be it should be more, or less?)

08-31-2007, 02:35 AM	#74
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Does anyone have Godwin's Mystery Religions in the Ancient World. If so, any chance of a scan of p.28, where he refers to this quote? Likewise of whatever page in Freke and Gandy refers to Godwin for it? (I'm trying to tie up links in the chain).

08-31-2007, 07:38 AM	#75
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Amazingly the Academia Belgica have already sent me the jpgs of the translation, even before I sent off the money. Good people, clearly.

08-31-2007, 11:45 AM	#76
God Fearing Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Massachusetts, USA -- Let's Go Red Sox! Posts: 1,500	Roger, I sent JPGs of the relevant pages of Freke and Gandy to your Yahoo email address. ETA: Also requested Godwin from a library in our system. Should be here in a couple days. Are there any other putative 'pagain parallels' dependent on Godwin worth checking out while I have the book around?

08-31-2007, 12:45 PM	#77
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	I'd like to thank everyone who has responded -- looks as if its covered!

08-31-2007, 12:53 PM	#78
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Infuriatingly, the Italian covers only ff. 48a- 58a!! It doesn't look as if it ever contained more, since the last page finishes early and Cumont has written notes on the end of it. If there is an incipit this isn't included either. The bit we want is f.59a, of course. The god is vocalised as 'Bandaritos', in the translation. I'm going to see if I can get the Karshuni text, and then try and pay someone to translate it. I will translate the Italian as far as it goes.

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