Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Charlesknight · 07-05-2005, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lysimachus

I already gave you a couple URLs, but to be more blunt, it is WAR that these scientists and accredited universities are taking more serious than in the past.

Who? where? for that statement to be true you need to mention organizations that have not been associated with WAR in the past. Your reply should not contain "I will not mention their names because...."

Wallener · 07-05-2005, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lysimachus

...these pillars could represent "the legs of Christ" as memorials for the Lord delivering his children.

That would be problematic as the idea of "christ" is heresy to the people of Exodus.

Wallener · 07-05-2005, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lysimachus

However, coral does not bore into the metal itself.

It doesn't bore into wood, either. The growth mechanism is the same for both substrates: a layer of attachment medium (ie limestone) accretes on the surface of the foreign object and coral grows on it.

Wood, metal, makes no difference.

Sauron · 07-05-2005, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lysimachus

I already gave you a couple URLs, but to be more blunt, it is WAR that these scientists and accredited universities are taking more serious than in the past. Not Ron Wyatt, per say. But WAR is continuing in the legacy that Ron left, so one can only read between the lines.

Here are the URLs again, since you seemed to have missed them:

Embedded Metal Pin in the Garden Tomb

http://www.wyattmuseum.com/metal_pin_main.htm

http://www.wyattmuseum.com/metal_pin_report.htm

Notice the second report especially, a report by Yehiel Zelinger, Research Archaeologist, Israel Antiquities Authorities.

The first link quotes the following:

In preparation for the analysis and in compliance with the regulations of the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA), Mr. Peter Wells of the Garden Tomb Association contacted Mr. Jon Seligman, director of Antiquities for Jerusalem. Mr. Seligman, after examining the metal, believed it to be of ancient origin rather than modern. Due to that determination, it was necessary for Wyatt Archaeological Research to obtain permission, not only from the Garden Tomb Association, but also from the IAA….
…. On Tuesday, October 15th at 10:30 A.M. the sample was taken to Hebrew University Institute of earth sciences at Givat Ram. The sample was then opened and analyzed by Mr. Elad Izreali. Micrographs were generated, revealing a central core of almost pure iron inside an outer sheath consisting of almost pure lead.

Ron, from the very beginning, believed it to be a metal pin...one that held a stone into place. Critics for a long time said it was most likely a piece of "shrapnel" and nothing more. Now the tests confirm that Ron's theory of it being pure metal and not shrapnel was right.

You have one solitary claim here about a metal pin? That's it? Your claim above was far more expansive and grand. This is how you back it up? With a story about a metal pin?

Flaws with this include:

1. We have no evidence that anyone ever thought this was "shrapnel" - contrary to you, and to WAR;
2. The IAA report specifically says that the pin cannot be dated.
3. WAR then ignores the mountain of evidence surrounding the accuracy of radiometric dating and says:

Chronological Placement
As to the dating of the manufacture and placement of the metal pin, based on radiometric analysis: It is the opinion of Wyatt Archaeological Research that radiometric dating procedures are based on many assumptions, are very inaccurate and are not appropriate in the dating of the metal pin.

4. And then WAR shoots itself in the foot with the next sentence:

Due to this fact and the fact that securing iron pins in lead cannot be isolated to any one time period, we believe that the manufacture and placement of the pin, as may be determined by radiometric dating, will remain subject to debate.

Was this back-and-forth position switching supposed to *increase*our confidence in WAR?

McD · 07-05-2005, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lysimachus

If one dares to enter the realm by stating that Ron could have "easily planted those chariot wheels", then I'm afraid this is subscribing oneself to having no faith in anyone who discovers anything.

There is no need to suggest that Wyatt planted chariot wheels. None. As I said earlier, finding a chariot wheel in the Red Sea is about as intersting as finding a Chevy in the Mississippe river.

Finding chariot wheels in the Res Sea do not prove that one single word of the book of Exodus is true. If this was a court case, the judge would disallow submission of those alledged chariot wheels because they say nothing about the claim. Not a word.

Sven · 07-06-2005, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lysimachus

I already gave you a couple URLs, but to be more blunt, it is WAR that these scientists and accredited universities are taking more serious than in the past. Not Ron Wyatt, per say. But WAR is continuing in the legacy that Ron left, so one can only read between the lines.

[snip]

Ron, from the very beginning, believed it to be a metal pin...one that held a stone into place. Critics for a long time said it was most likely a piece of "shrapnel" and nothing more. Now the tests confirm that Ron's theory of it being pure metal and not shrapnel was right.

Nice. Not that this was a very extraordinary claim of Ron. So no surprise that WAR found some experts who agree with them that the pin is ancient. Now please go on and find some experts who 'realize that he wasn't so "off the wall" as they originally thought' - IOW, some experts who think that his (and WARs) claim

[...] that the "great stone" of the Garden Tomb was made sure by placing a metal pin adjacent to its rolling surface to prevent it from being rolled back. It is also the theory of Wyatt Archaeological Research that when the "Angel of the Lord...descended from heaven...and rolled back the stone from the door" that the brittle metal pin, hardened by ancient means, was sheared off leaving the jagged surface that can be seen today. It is also theorized by Wyatt Archaeological Research that the placement of the pin would indicate that a truly "great stone," of unusual size, was used to seal the entrance to the Garden Tomb.

has merit. Then you would have a point.

Prester John · 07-06-2005, 04:06 AM

So its a chariot wheel that was encased in gold, including presumably the rim that has contact with the ground. Now i don't know much about egytptian technology but i doubt they had anti-gravity and without it i fail to see how there would be any gold left on the rim after about 100 yards of travelling, gold not being known for its hardness or utility. Since the wood has rotted away, the only way to maintain the shape of the wheel would be if the gold outer coat was complete, including rim.

Also any competent acheologist would have included a scale, suspicious that it is not there.

Also i'm guessing most archeologists would be happy with 1 or 2 major discoveries in a lifetime. My Wyatt seems to have validated nighon the whole OT but rather frustratingly forgot to present these momumental discoveries to the scientific world. How unlucky is that.

Sven · 07-06-2005, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lysimachus

This photo was taken of a large heaped pile on the underwater scrape yard (some like to call it "underwater land bridge�?, but it technically isn't). As you will notice, a human rib cage sits highlighted in yellow quite distinctly. If you will look to the bottom, you will notice two 6-spoked chariot wheels colored in pink.

Is anyone else reminded of one of these threads? (just search for other threads by ExtraSense)

Quote:

This is not to mention the fact that human femur bones, cattle bones, as well as HORSE bones have ALL been brought to the surface and carefully analyzed in labs.

By whom?

Quote:

Dr. Moller states:

And what exactly qualifies him to make these claims?

Quote:

Here is an illustration for several of the wheels identified at Aqaba:

[snip]

See above. Can anyone say "creative imagination"?

Quote:

If the gold-gilded wheel Ron found lieing on the sea-bed is a steam-ship handwheel, then tell me, what sort of explanation are you going to give for the rest of the coral-encrusted wheels?

First show that they are actually wheels. *shrug*

Quote:

Ron actually attempted to remove the wheel with his hand, but it was so fragile he decided to leave it on the sea-bed and not disturb it.

And why exactly should we trust his words?

Charlesknight · 07-06-2005, 05:29 AM

I see Lysimachus wishes to cite the IAA:

Quote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 10:13:12 +0300 (IDT)
From: jo@israntique.org.il
To: jsearcy@connecti.org.il
Cc: Harriet@israntique.org.il
Subject: Re: Ron Wyatt

Dear Mr. Searcy

Mr. Ron Wyatt is neither an archaeologist nor has he ever carried out a legally licensed excavation in Israel or Jerusalem. In order to excavate one must have at least a BA in archaeology which he does not possess despite his claims to the contrary. We are aware of his claims which border on the absurd as they have no scientific basis whatsoever nor have they ever been published in a professional journal. They fall into the category of trash which one finds in tabloids such as the National Enquirer, Sun etc. It's amazing that anyone would believe them. Furthermore, he has been throughly discredited by various Christian organizations such as Creation Research in Calif. For the latest on his "discoveries" I suggest going into the WWW (use Vista) someone called Tentmaker decided to do an expose of his various claims. Here you will find the truth, which is more amazing that his (RW) fictions.

Shalom
=============================
Joe Zias
Curator of Anthropology/Archaeology
Israel Antiquities Authority
POB 586, Jerusalem

Quote:

Shalom, if you have stirred up a wasps nest you must be doing something good. I can be quoted on the following:

A. Ron Wyatt has never received a license from the IAA to excavate here in Jerusalem. If he has then let him produce a license for his digs and surveys in Jerusalem, the Judean Desert, Mt. Sinai etc.

B. Finding a coin at the so called Mt. Sinai. This shows the total ignorance of RW and his public who want to believe rather than to know! Coins were not around at the times of Moses, even an amauter archaeologist should know this simple fact!!! There are so many so called Mt. Sinais that even the Jews do not know where it is located. Personally I believe that it is simply a literary invention which is why it will never be found.

C. As for the chariot wheel, a bluff, produce it, on what was the dating made? Saw it in the video, it looks like a hoax. If it exists date it in a C-14 lab. As a amauter arch. which he claims to be he should know of many.

D. The Noah's ark discovery has been discredited. If it is true, and I saw the tape, show lab reports on the C-14 lab report.

E. I personally read the junk about the blood of Christ which is totally absurd. I immediately sent a fax to RW as I knew he was bluffing asking for a) copy and address of the lab report and b) sample for some independent testing which we would do. As of yet we have not received any reply, I sent a colleague who is a professor of NT to Tenn. to see what was up and the person in charge of the museum there said that we in the IAA are a bunch of non-believers and they weren't interested in providing such info. to us. =============================

F. I saw his video which is an embarrasment to the world of arch. The only people who can believe this junk is one who has never studied arch. As for the impt. archaeologists he mentions in his reports. I have never heard of one of them after 25 yrs in the profession. As for the James Irwin, what are his credentials regarding the world of Biblical Arch. Did he have a BA in the profession, he was conned into believing this as have many others who wish to believe rather than to know.

G. Has RW ever had any of his impt. so called discoveries published in a peer reviewed journal? If so why not?

H. Lastly if RW can supply us with the lab report on the so called blood of Jesus along with a sample for independent testing which shows 24 chromosones I will then be led along the road to Damascus. Otherwise he is bluffing.

Joe Zias
Curator of Anthropology/Archaeology
Israel Antiquities Authority
POB 586, Jerusalem

http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/Zias.html

Lysimachus · 07-06-2005, 06:39 AM

How many times have I taken the time to show that the Tentmaker allegations are totally flawed and false? The purpose of the Discoveries: Questions Answered book is answer the critics from the Tentmaker allegations. All the data in my Noah's Ark thread totally obliterates the negative comments, for example, against the Ark site.

It doesn't matter how many people deny that Wyatt Archaeological Research foundation is working closely with the IAA. I know they are working closely with the IAA. We see clearly Richard Rives, president of WAR, drilling a hole at the Garden Tomb site. You think the IAA would LET HIM DO THAT?

This is not to mention that I saw a number of IAA officials reviewing the large dig that took place in 2003. There were like a crew of 50, 60, or more people. It was a massive team that worked together. This is all heavily organized stuff, and all regulated closely by the IAA:

http://www.wyattmuseum.com/Zedekiahs%20Cave.htm

I doubt you will find any official PDF files of permits with the IAA, as the IAA wishes to these digs as confidential as possible, especially from Palistinians. If the Palistinians found out that the cave extends into Palistinian soil, it could cause Jihad.

Why do you think the Israeli News Papers spoke of these 6 Israeli men dressed in levitical garb that died trying to retrieve a national treasure? All 6 died in the passage way in Zedekiah's cave, all from brain hemerage. The government hired these 6 men to move it over onto Israeli soil.

The government and the IAA work closely with WAR, but they cannot risk releasing anymore information than has already been released.

The Ark of the Covenant most likely is down there. All the ancient records point to this area being the most logical location. The IAA is smart enough to percieve this, otherwise they would not let all this unecessary digging to take place.

I saw the 15min DVD. This was a large, professional crew, containing a number of doctors on the dig.

Quit denying that they are not working with the IAA and that they are doing this "illegal". It is rather immature for any of you to continue rambling on with this nonesense. It's getting old...old as the hills, and getting you no where.

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07-06-2005, 04:06 AM	#117
Prester John Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Wales Posts: 560	So its a chariot wheel that was encased in gold, including presumably the rim that has contact with the ground. Now i don't know much about egytptian technology but i doubt they had anti-gravity and without it i fail to see how there would be any gold left on the rim after about 100 yards of travelling, gold not being known for its hardness or utility. Since the wood has rotted away, the only way to maintain the shape of the wheel would be if the gold outer coat was complete, including rim. Also any competent acheologist would have included a scale, suspicious that it is not there. Also i'm guessing most archeologists would be happy with 1 or 2 major discoveries in a lifetime. My Wyatt seems to have validated nighon the whole OT but rather frustratingly forgot to present these momumental discoveries to the scientific world. How unlucky is that.

07-06-2005, 06:39 AM	#120
Lysimachus Banned Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Wisconsin USA Posts: 148	How many times have I taken the time to show that the Tentmaker allegations are totally flawed and false? The purpose of the Discoveries: Questions Answered book is answer the critics from the Tentmaker allegations. All the data in my Noah's Ark thread totally obliterates the negative comments, for example, against the Ark site. It doesn't matter how many people deny that Wyatt Archaeological Research foundation is working closely with the IAA. I know they are working closely with the IAA. We see clearly Richard Rives, president of WAR, drilling a hole at the Garden Tomb site. You think the IAA would LET HIM DO THAT? This is not to mention that I saw a number of IAA officials reviewing the large dig that took place in 2003. There were like a crew of 50, 60, or more people. It was a massive team that worked together. This is all heavily organized stuff, and all regulated closely by the IAA: http://www.wyattmuseum.com/Zedekiahs%20Cave.htm I doubt you will find any official PDF files of permits with the IAA, as the IAA wishes to these digs as confidential as possible, especially from Palistinians. If the Palistinians found out that the cave extends into Palistinian soil, it could cause Jihad. Why do you think the Israeli News Papers spoke of these 6 Israeli men dressed in levitical garb that died trying to retrieve a national treasure? All 6 died in the passage way in Zedekiah's cave, all from brain hemerage. The government hired these 6 men to move it over onto Israeli soil. The government and the IAA work closely with WAR, but they cannot risk releasing anymore information than has already been released. The Ark of the Covenant most likely is down there. All the ancient records point to this area being the most logical location. The IAA is smart enough to percieve this, otherwise they would not let all this unecessary digging to take place. I saw the 15min DVD. This was a large, professional crew, containing a number of doctors on the dig. Quit denying that they are not working with the IAA and that they are doing this "illegal". It is rather immature for any of you to continue rambling on with this nonesense. It's getting old...old as the hills, and getting you no where.

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