Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 02-14-2008, 11:52 PM

IIRC isn't servasti a conjectural reconstruction?

God Fearing Atheist · 02-15-2008, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

IIRC isn't servasti a conjectural reconstruction?

Not that I know of.

Roger Pearse · 02-16-2008, 12:29 AM

I've had the feedback on the translation sample of Al-Majdalus, and it was dismissive. Basically the chap in Lebanon who had advertised his services couldn't do the job. So I've dismissed him. I will look at some other way to get Al-Majdalus translated.

I've also had another go at getting the jpgs of the missing two pages of the Beirut manuscript from the Bibliotheque Orientale in Beirut (they have again refused to simply email them to me). I've ordered some more pictures of manuscripts that contain "sayings of the philosophers" and asked them to plonk the extra two images on the CD.

andrewcriddle · 02-16-2008, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

IIRC isn't servasti a conjectural reconstruction?

IIUC the problematic reconstruction is the word eternali eternal.

(However one should note that although translating servasti as you have saved is entirely legitimate; it probably does not have the connotations of salvation in Christianity. You could translate it as you have preserved.)

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse · 02-22-2008, 01:19 PM

One of the possible witnesses is a passage in Severus of Al-Ashmunein's Book of the Councils. Unfortunately the printed text was from a manuscript which doesn't include this passage, but it can be found in a Cairo manuscript:

Quote:

'Cairo 111': "Severus ibn al-Muqaffa‘ of al-Ashmûnain (10th century) in his polemical "Book of the Councils" (= S) 2...[2] In Cairo 111 (1544 AD), ff. 268v-270v. This portion was not included in the printed edition in Patrologia Orientalis III, 2." (Graf vol. 1. p-483-6)

Graf (almost always) refers to the Cairo MSS via the numeration of his own catalogue. This catalogue combines material from both the Coptic Patriarchate and the Coptic Museum.

Graf nr 111 is found in the Coptic Museum. Its shelf number there is Theol. 196. It is also described in Simaika's catalogue under nr. 53. In the film collection at BYU, it is found in Roll A15-4.

Microfilms of this exist at Brigham Young University, and I have now obtained images of the pages containing it!

I will now try to get it transcribed and translated.

The people in Beirut are now sending me images of the published commentary of Al-Majd, and (I hope) the missing two pages of Al-Majdalus.

BYU just emailed me the images free of charge. The BO in Beirut have charged me heavilly, and won't send by email or web.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

andrewcriddle · 03-01-2008, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The resemblances between Mingana 142 and Ibn Saba against 481 are obvious but there are interesting agreements between Ibn Saba and Mingana 481 against 142. Plato in the Book of Mysteries/Secrets and Aristotle in the Book/Treasure of Treasures are obvious but there are more if you realise that Ormuz the Sage in Ibn Saba is actually Hermes (correctly rendered in 481) (I suspect that the Sage Sabla in Ibn Saba is actually the (pseudo-) Sibylline Oracles although the Oracle quoted is not found in the standard collections)

The Sage Sabla is the (pseudo-) Sibylline Oracles

Quote:

The Sage Sabla said: "Inthe sixth era, a powerful king will arise who will see in the sky the sign of the cross on which God, son of God, must be suspended. In the east a God will be seen whose mother will not have known man. A king will raise his head who will be incapable to save himself and will kill the young children because of the one that will have been born in a city of Judah."

Sebastian Brock A Syriac Collection of Prophecies of the Pagan Philosophers

Quote:

Next the Sibyl who interpreted the dreams of the hundred judges in Rome.
a/ "In the fourth generation God shall appear in the south; no man shall have known his mother (in intercourse) and there shall rise up against him a king who is unable to save himself and he will slay children because of him who has been revealed in the land of Judah. He shall not benefit himself in anything."
b/ "Rejoice o maid and exult for to you has he given joy for ever: he is God who created both heaven and earth yet he shall dwell in you and he shall be to you endless light."
The same on the cross."
c/ "In the fifth generation there shall rise up a mighty king and a portent shall be manifested for/by him in heaven, a sign upon which God is about to be hung (namely) on the cross."

(This whole section is also found in Dionysios bar Salibi)

a/ and c/ are clearly linked to the Ibn Saba passage about the Sage Sabla, they appear to be a paraphrase of the late Greek reworking of the Tiburtine Sibyl known as the Baalbek Oracle.

b/ is not related to the Sage Sabla passage in Ibn Saba and comes from the Third Book of the Sibylline Oracles.

Andrew Criddle

ETA

Iloun the Sage in Ibn Saba is probably originally Apollo

Quote:

Iloun the Sage said: "The very great Son of God will come clothed in flesh and will resemble the mortal ones on earth."

Compare Sebastian Brock

Quote:

Apollo on the Father and the Son.
The son of god great and exalted shall come clothed in flesh resembling mortals.

This actually comes from the First Book of the Sibylline Oracles.

Batarnêtis the Sage is originally the Neoplatonist Amelios

Quote:

Batarnêtis the Sage said: "Thus the Word is God, He has everything in His hand. When He descended from the sky and had clothed Himself in flesh, He published his humanity and showed his magnitude. More, He is God, as He always had been before his coming."

Compare Sebastian Brock

Quote:

Amelios (Syriac corrupt) on the Son
The word was with god and was god and through him everything came into being. Having descended from heaven and been clothed in a body he appeared (as) a man and he manifested the greatness of nature. And again that he is god as he was before he came down.

This goes back to Eusebius Praeparatio Evangelica XI http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eu..._11_book11.htm

Quote:

Naturally therefore Amelius also, who was distinguished among recent philosophers, and above all others an admirer of Plato's philosophy, who moreover called the Hebrew theologian a Barbarian, even though he did not deign to mention John the Evangelist by name, nevertheless bears witness to his statements, writing exactly what follows word for word:

[AMELIUS] 'AND this then was the Word, on whom as being eternal depended the existence of the things that were made, as Heracleitus also would maintain, and the same forsooth of whom, as set in the rank and dignity of the beginning, the Barbarian maintains that He was with God and was God: through whom absolutely all things were made; in whom the living creature, and life, and being had their birth: and that He came down into bodies, and clothed Himself in flesh, and appeared as man, yet showing withal even then the majesty of His nature; aye, indeed, even after dissolution He was restored to deity, and is a God, such as He was before He came down to dwell in the body, and the flesh, and Man.'

Compare also Ormuz the Sage in Ibn Saba

Quote:

Ormuz the Sage said: "The Word [comes] from the first Father. When He was born being already perfect in light, He obtained not a complement in his nature. He is son and agent in his descent [on earth]; his incarnation of a virgin [results] from the shadow on the water."

with Sebastian Brock

Quote:

Hermes on the Son.
The word of the same was born being perfect in everything born and creator having descended into a mother who gave him birth and dwelt in nature and he caused the waters to conceive.

There is also a close parallel between the Porphyry passage in Ibn Saba and the text in Brock.

This is an unexpected parallel.
Manes the Sage in Ibn Saba (who I wrongly guessed was Mani the founder of Manichaeanism)

Quote:

Manes (Mani) the Sage said: "When the fire that exists before the darkness appears and descends on the earth, when He shows Himself in an earthly body, a lot of people will not understand it. He will return then and will climb back up to his first position of which the glory is sublime."

corresponds to Baba the God or prophet of Harran in Sebastian Brock

Quote:

Prophecy of Baba the God of Harran............when the Fire which was prior to the world is come to the earth and has appeared in a body (belonging to) the earth, but men will not recognize (it) and it will return again and ascend to its exalted region to the glory which is hidden from all.

Roger Pearse · 03-01-2008, 05:27 AM

Very nice -- thank you Andrew! It is nice to start tying the Arabic material back to the Syriac. I wonder what the tradition of the Sybilline books is in Syriac and Arabic (if any).

My translator of the Severus of al-Ashmunein stuff sent me a version of the first half, and it was gibberish -- unusable. I'm pushing back to get a better job done; if he can't do it, I have other possibilities. But even from that piece I was able to see that it is indeed a collection of pagan testimonia, as Graf suggested. Hermes and Plato appear, for instance.

I've also today had images from Beirut of the missing pages of Al-Majdalus, of a printed version of the Commentary of Al-Majd, and of another manuscript which also contains some pagan testimonia, I believe. I'm too weary this weekend to do anything much, but will get onto getting translations made of these when I can.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

andrewcriddle · 03-01-2008, 06:24 AM

I'm starting a new post for parallels between Sebastian Brock A Syriac Collection of Prophecies of the Pagan Philosophers and Mingana 481

Arposh the Wise in 481 (who I thought was Orpheus)

Quote:

Arposh (?) the wise said: The imperceptible Light is one only, and it is the Thought in every available moment. The Word born of Him is perfect in all respects and makes all things.

seems to correspond to Hermes Trismegistos in Brock (although Brock notes that the attribution of this passage is variable in the tradition. )

Quote:

Hermes Trismegistos also speaks about the Trinity
.......the intelligible light was all alone on its own before the sensible light and it is at all times the mind which illumines the intelligence.
After a little he said
The word which was born from him is perfected in everything and is creator as well.

Whereas Archos

Quote:

Archos the wise said: Three names in one divinity, by which all things came into being.

seems to correspond to Orpheus in Brock

Quote:

The wise Orpheus says
........Orpheus also wrote in his same book saying "through the three names a single godhead everything came into being and he is the cause of everything"

Anasolus

Quote:

Anasolus said: O my son, the great king, pure without blemish, you are great indeed, the master of human beings, whom everyone sees in your glory (?), you have no blemish, the mighty king who has power over all things, both mortal and immortal.

Anasolus said: These powers are three divine names, one from His power and dominion, of the One God, which no one shall see, and a power that no one can meet, nor perceive its nature. All things came into being from these powers.

also seems to correspond to Orpheus in Brock

Quote:

The wise Orpheus says
O son of the great king, immaculate, mighty son and lord of the day who shoots with a bow at everything from afar with your rays; o immaculate mighty allpowerful king of mortals and immortals.....the power of the three divine names is a single power and might of the unique God whom no one can see and his appearance and nature is a power which no one can know. From this power everything came into being...

One of the references to Yanfus the Wise in Ibn Saba

Quote:

Yanfus the wise said: Glory (?) to you, o thrice-blessed, who is God the eternal (?), who shall die and abolish death clearly, when He will rise after three days.

seems to correspond to the Sagae in Brock

Quote:

The Sagae on the cross
"O cross thrice blessed upon which God was stretched out" and "the dead one who finished off death when he slept for three days".

(This is based on pasages from the Books Six and Eight of the Sibylline Oracles.)

The other references to Yanfus the Wise

Quote:

Yanfus the wise said: The Thought, which is like fire, which is divinity and life everlasting (?), and an immutable light which will be seen upon the earth. He will (ascend?) into the sky and command (…?).

He said also: He will descend in purity and shine forth [as] the Lord upon the earth, and (225r) the Persians will come with gifts, and He, praise be to Him, will offer guidance of the Great and Mysterious (?) God. He will appear upon the earth, being higher than the Word and superior to the Intellect, and will never cease.

seems to relate to Baba in Ibn Saba

Quote:

Prophecy of Baba the god of Harran
...........For the immortal mind of fire sacrifices that never pass away and incorruptible light will appear on earth while still dwelling in heaven having sway over both heaven and earth.......The radiance of the Lord shall openly come down upon earth and they shall be without signs until the ascent of Lampon. And Persians shall come offering gifts to the radiance. Glorious is the conduct of the godhead and wondrous is the wonder which shall appear on earth, it is exalted above words nd it is beyond mind, it is utterly unattainable and impossible to number.

(Brock suggests that Lampon is Kronos ie the planet Saturn.)

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse · 03-01-2008, 07:43 AM

Thank you. Graf also suggests that the 'sayings' move around between speakers, but it is nice to see some evidence of it.

andrewcriddle · 03-01-2008, 07:49 AM

IF I'm right in linking the some of the pagan prophecies in Ibn Saba and Mingana 481 to the prophet Baba of Harran, then this would be solid evidence that the early form of this Arabic material originated in the 6th century or later in Syria as a result of controversy between Christians and the pagans of Harran (later known as Sabaeans).

Andrew Criddle

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02-14-2008, 11:52 PM	#191
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	IIRC isn't servasti a conjectural reconstruction?

02-16-2008, 12:29 AM	#193
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	I've had the feedback on the translation sample of Al-Majdalus, and it was dismissive. Basically the chap in Lebanon who had advertised his services couldn't do the job. So I've dismissed him. I will look at some other way to get Al-Majdalus translated. I've also had another go at getting the jpgs of the missing two pages of the Beirut manuscript from the Bibliotheque Orientale in Beirut (they have again refused to simply email them to me). I've ordered some more pictures of manuscripts that contain "sayings of the philosophers" and asked them to plonk the extra two images on the CD.

03-01-2008, 05:27 AM	#197
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Very nice -- thank you Andrew! It is nice to start tying the Arabic material back to the Syriac. I wonder what the tradition of the Sybilline books is in Syriac and Arabic (if any). My translator of the Severus of al-Ashmunein stuff sent me a version of the first half, and it was gibberish -- unusable. I'm pushing back to get a better job done; if he can't do it, I have other possibilities. But even from that piece I was able to see that it is indeed a collection of pagan testimonia, as Graf suggested. Hermes and Plato appear, for instance. I've also today had images from Beirut of the missing pages of Al-Majdalus, of a printed version of the Commentary of Al-Majd, and of another manuscript which also contains some pagan testimonia, I believe. I'm too weary this weekend to do anything much, but will get onto getting translations made of these when I can. All the best, Roger Pearse

03-01-2008, 07:43 AM	#199
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Thank you. Graf also suggests that the 'sayings' move around between speakers, but it is nice to see some evidence of it.

03-01-2008, 07:49 AM	#200
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	IF I'm right in linking the some of the pagan prophecies in Ibn Saba and Mingana 481 to the prophet Baba of Harran, then this would be solid evidence that the early form of this Arabic material originated in the 6th century or later in Syria as a result of controversy between Christians and the pagans of Harran (later known as Sabaeans). Andrew Criddle

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