Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Godwithus · 11-18-2010, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

Actually when Jesus went up into the clouds in front of the Apostles...it was clearly literal...and so was his said return by the Angels...literally coming in the clouds.

Sorry it doesnt say he "went up into the clouds". It says..."and a cloud hid him from their sight."

Quote:

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

Rev. 1

..well how will those who pieced him see him if he is still to return and if it is a literal event?
How for goodness akes will "every eye " see him?
They are dead! They arent living earthly lives.

Quote:

After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.

11 Men of Galilee, they said, why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.

Acts 1

I mean seriously dude, you should try reading the texts first.

Quote:

well how will those who pieced him see him if he is still to return and if it is a literal event?
How for goodness akes will "every eye " see him?
They are dead! They arent living earthly lives.

How was the rich man in Hell able to see into heaven at Abraham and Lazurus?

Sheshbazzar · 11-18-2010, 08:31 PM

This is Peters lead in announcment;

Quote:

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them;

"Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

<snip>

..... And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: "

Did Peter and his listeners believe all of this had literally happened? The scenario is expounding upon the recently past events.

Quite obviously Peter, and his audience all understood that he was engaging in some poetic hyperbole, not a literal recounting of actual events.

Godwithus · 11-18-2010, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

This is Peters lead in announcment;

Quote:

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them;

"Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

<snip>

..... And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: "

Did Peter and his listeners believe all of this had literally happened?

Quite obviously Peter, and his audience all understood that he was engaging in some poetic hyperbole, not a literal recounting of actual events.

Only the first few verses were fufilled in Peter's day.

Quote:

The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

This will occur at the end of the tribulation.

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But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.....That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

2 Peter 3

Peter believed them to be literal.

Sheshbazzar · 11-18-2010, 08:56 PM

Creative interpretation Godwithus, the context of Acts 2 presents it as being the introductory, the lead in, THE PRESENT evidence of Christ having came.

It's naughty to attempt to split off just these two verses and then claim that they are intended for some time thousands of years in the future.
That certainly is NOT how Peter was applying the prophecy, nor how his listeners would have interpreted it.
In Acts 2:22 Peter picks up his personal dialog again, indicating that Christ had been the fulfillment of the foregoing prophecy of Joel.

Godwithus · 11-18-2010, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Creative interpretation Godwithus, the context of Acts 2 presents it as being the introductory, the lead in, THE PRESENT evidence of Christ having came.

It's naughty to attempt to split off just these two verses and then claim that they are intended for some time thousands of years in the future.
That certainly is NOT how Peter was applying the prophecy, nor how his listeners would have interpreted it.
In Acts 2:22 Peter picks up his personal dialog again, indicating that Christ had been the fulfillment of the foregoing prophecy of Joel.

Thats how prophecy works...like Joel 3.

Quote:

In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

Verse 1 fulfilled...verse 2 Division of Judea fulfilled...the gathering of the nations...future.

Sheshbazzar · 11-18-2010, 09:49 PM

Joel's prophecies were hyperbolic and were directed at the Priesthood and religious leaders -of his day-.

Quote:

Gird yourselves, and lament, ye Priests: howl, ye Ministers of The Altar:
come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my Elohim:
for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from The House of your Elohim.

Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather The Elders and all the inhabitants of the land into 'The House of Yahweh' your Elohim, and cry unto Yahweh,
Jo 1:13-14

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Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto Yahweh your Elohim?

New Testement;

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Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein;
which are offered by The Law;

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every Priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 10

Godwithus · 11-18-2010, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Joel's prophecies were hyperbolic and were directed at the Priesthood and religious leaders -of his day-.

Quote:

Gird yourselves, and lament, ye Priests: howl, ye Ministers of The Altar:
come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my Elohim:
for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from The House of your Elohim.

Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather The Elders and all the inhabitants of the land into 'The House of Yahweh' your Elohim, and cry unto Yahweh,
Jo 1:13-14

New Testement;

Quote:

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein;
which are offered by The Law;

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every Priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 10

I dont think so...read this carefully:

Quote:

In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

When have the all nations ever divided the land of Judah in history? Only in our times under the UN.

Quote:

Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.

16 The LORD will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the sky will tremble. But the LORD will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.

Clearly an end time event.

Sheshbazzar · 11-18-2010, 11:44 PM

Quote:

I dont think so...read this carefully:

I have read it carefully for fifty years, used to even believe it and recite it myself.
Now that I know what it is talking about, I recognise the context of the time and place.
I think that you don't know what you are talking about.

Quote:

When have the all nations ever divided the land of Judah in history? Only in our times under the UN.
Clearly an end time event.

Pffft! Well, just don't hold your breath.

No I take that back, Go ahead and hold your breath.

Hold it for a minuite, or hold for the next year,
hold it for a decade, or hold it for four-score and seven years;
Hell, hold it for the next millennia, and it still ain't gonna happen.

Because the rest of the world is just going to keep on going on.
And no magical zombie is ever going to come down out of the sky
and cart your sorry ass off to Jerusalem.

And two hundred years, and two thousand years from now people will pity folks like you that got trapped in,
and wasted their lives in the believing of such superstitious tripe.

Doug Shaver · 11-18-2010, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

I converted from reading the texts

Was that a cold reading?

judge · 11-19-2010, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

Acts 1

I mean seriously dude, you should try reading the texts first

So a handful of people saw him vanish...but somehow you think that even though he returns in this same way ".ëvery eye will see him"

So answer me this...if Jesus returns in the very same way and only a handfull saw him leave , only those in his immediate vicinity, then how on earth is it possible that every single person on earth will see him return???

Duuuude ....dont you see this is not possible??

At least one of these verses cant be literal if you want to make them non contradictory

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11-18-2010, 08:56 PM	#54
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Creative interpretation Godwithus, the context of Acts 2 presents it as being the introductory, the lead in, THE PRESENT evidence of Christ having came. It's naughty to attempt to split off just these two verses and then claim that they are intended for some time thousands of years in the future. That certainly is NOT how Peter was applying the prophecy, nor how his listeners would have interpreted it. In Acts 2:22 Peter picks up his personal dialog again, indicating that Christ had been the fulfillment of the foregoing prophecy of Joel.

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