Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 07-16-2004, 11:55 AM

Shall we apply for a grant from the Templeton foundation to test this empirically? Has anyone tried to concoct the Biblical formula and gone out to the dessert to annoint themselves?

I realize that there are legal issues, but surely not insurmountable for this sort of religious research.

Amaleq13 · 07-16-2004, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

I would be more interested in looking at the psychotropic effects (if any) of the oil than its use as medicine.

If you need volunteer subjects, I would be willing to "take one for the team".

I don't have a desert nearby but I've got scads of mountains and forests.

Peter Kirby · 07-16-2004, 01:33 PM

The first thing I would want to know is whether there is any effect from rubbing a liquid with cannabis sativa over the head. I will leave it to someone else to find out.

best,
Peter Kirby

Amaleq13 · 07-16-2004, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

The first thing I would want to know is whether there is any effect from rubbing a liquid with cannabis sativa over the head. I will leave it to someone else to find out.

Hash oil is supposed to work through skin absorption and is, according to the DEA, the most potent form of marijuana use. Just a couple drops on a regular cigarette is alleged to be equal to a whole joint.

Assuming the individual in question was also fasting, I think you've got yourself a "religious experience" waiting to happen.

Gawen · 07-17-2004, 06:04 AM

I've often wondered about lead poisoning. The Romans used lead to make and line water pipes. Of course this is a VERY long shot. But you never know.

Toto · 03-04-2008, 01:03 PM

Update (this story is on two other forums here):

Moses was high on drugs: Isreali researcher

Quote:

. . . mind-altering substances formed an integral part of the religious rites of Israelites in biblical times, Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem wrote in the Time and Mind journal of philosophy.

"As far Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and this is very probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics," Shanon told Israeli public radio on Tuesday.

. . .

He said the psychedelic effects of ayahuasca were comparable to those produced by concoctions based on bark of the acacia tree, that is frequently mentioned in the Bible.

MSNBC article

Quote:

Writing in the British journal Time and Mind, Benny Shanon of Jerusalem’s Hebrew University said two plants in the Sinai desert contain the same psychoactive molecules as those found in plants from which the powerful Amazonian hallucinogenic brew ayahuasca is prepared.

. . .

Shanon wrote that he was very familiar with the affects of the ayahuasca plant, having “partaken of the ... brew about 160 times in various locales and contexts.”

He said one of the psychoactive plants, harmal, found in the Sinai and elsewhere in the Middle East, has long been regarded by Jews in the region as having magical and curative powers.

Ha'aretz

Quote:

"Hypotheses have been around for 20 years connecting the beginning of religions with psychoactive materials," Shanon says. He believes the Israelites used two plants in Sinai and the Negev: one of them is wild rue, a hallucinogen used by the Bedoin to this day. However this plant is not identified with any plant mentioned in the Bible.

The acacia tree also has psychedelic properties, Shanon says, which the Israelites could have used. The acacia is mentioned frequently in the Bible, and was the type of wood of which the Ark of the Covenant was made. According to Shanon, he drank a potion prepared from a species of acacia while he was in South America, which caused similar experiences to those produced by the ayahuasca.

Shanon also sees signs of a hallucinogenic vision in the story of the burning bush.

The article itself is only available by subscription.

fta · 03-04-2008, 04:07 PM

Quote:

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed ... And the earth brought forth grass ... and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:11-12 :devil1:

DCHindley · 03-04-2008, 04:32 PM

I will here humbly plug my earlier post on "chreston" possibly being a drug-like ointment:

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthr...36#post4613536

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by krazytamak

Check out the following BBC and Guardian articles:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2633187.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Stor...869358,00.html

MarkA · 03-05-2008, 03:43 PM

This is an extremely interesting theory.

It appears to me that since religion is fundamentally irrational, then to construct a religious belief system the originator(s) of such a system must be ‘inspired’ by altering or suppressing their rational thought processes. This can be achieved by well- known and widely documented and observed means like physical depravation caused by fasting, physical punishment or by chanting and meditation or by the ingestion of narcotics.

This aspect of OT and NT experiences has been well documented in this post. Indeed, it is easier to understand the evolution of Jewish religion and its pivotal myths as being the product of inspired drug induced insights than as a history that is not related to reality at all. It may also explain why the prophets continually complain about the poorer class of Jewish society straying from the Temple religion. Simply, they could not possibly afford to be anointed with such costly products that constituted the ingredients of the holy oil and so did not share in the visions that the elite experienced.

As to the problem of the anointing not being practiced for a considerable time before the first century, it should be borne in mind that early Christianity was influenced by Gentile as well as by Jewish religion. Dionysus may indeed have influenced Christian worship more than is appreciated. Not only did some myths say he was nailed to a tree, but the god’s flesh and blood were consumed by his worshippers and they also saw the Hellenic version of the Kingdom of God while in a state of induced frenzy. By viewing the early Christian movement as an amalgam of Jewish beliefs and Hellenic influences, it is probable that such ecstatic visions as described in the Bible were induced by a mind- altering substance.

Casper · 03-05-2008, 04:31 PM

Could some of these references be to Khat (Catha edulis)?

It desn't have seeds, but it is supposed to have a distinctive smell. It is more of a stimulant than anything, with a psychoactive piece thrown in. It would probably just what the Shaman ordered for a long bout of fasting (kind of like coca leaves).

The local Coptics are very adamant about this being "a bad thing", which was where I found out about it. Apparently if you chew it your whole body smells like it for a couple of days. I don't know.

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07-16-2004, 11:55 AM	#61
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Shall we apply for a grant from the Templeton foundation to test this empirically? Has anyone tried to concoct the Biblical formula and gone out to the dessert to annoint themselves? I realize that there are legal issues, but surely not insurmountable for this sort of religious research.

07-16-2004, 01:33 PM	#63
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	The first thing I would want to know is whether there is any effect from rubbing a liquid with cannabis sativa over the head. I will leave it to someone else to find out. best, Peter Kirby

07-17-2004, 06:04 AM	#65
Gawen Contributor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Cylon Occupied Texas, but a Michigander @ heart Posts: 10,326	I've often wondered about lead poisoning. The Romans used lead to make and line water pipes. Of course this is a VERY long shot. But you never know.

03-05-2008, 03:43 PM	#69
MarkA Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 89	This is an extremely interesting theory. It appears to me that since religion is fundamentally irrational, then to construct a religious belief system the originator(s) of such a system must be ‘inspired’ by altering or suppressing their rational thought processes. This can be achieved by well- known and widely documented and observed means like physical depravation caused by fasting, physical punishment or by chanting and meditation or by the ingestion of narcotics. This aspect of OT and NT experiences has been well documented in this post. Indeed, it is easier to understand the evolution of Jewish religion and its pivotal myths as being the product of inspired drug induced insights than as a history that is not related to reality at all. It may also explain why the prophets continually complain about the poorer class of Jewish society straying from the Temple religion. Simply, they could not possibly afford to be anointed with such costly products that constituted the ingredients of the holy oil and so did not share in the visions that the elite experienced. As to the problem of the anointing not being practiced for a considerable time before the first century, it should be borne in mind that early Christianity was influenced by Gentile as well as by Jewish religion. Dionysus may indeed have influenced Christian worship more than is appreciated. Not only did some myths say he was nailed to a tree, but the god’s flesh and blood were consumed by his worshippers and they also saw the Hellenic version of the Kingdom of God while in a state of induced frenzy. By viewing the early Christian movement as an amalgam of Jewish beliefs and Hellenic influences, it is probable that such ecstatic visions as described in the Bible were induced by a mind- altering substance.

03-05-2008, 04:31 PM	#70
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	Could some of these references be to Khat (Catha edulis)? It desn't have seeds, but it is supposed to have a distinctive smell. It is more of a stimulant than anything, with a psychoactive piece thrown in. It would probably just what the Shaman ordered for a long bout of fasting (kind of like coca leaves). The local Coptics are very adamant about this being "a bad thing", which was where I found out about it. Apparently if you chew it your whole body smells like it for a couple of days. I don't know.

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