Amos

Correct. Catholicism is and always was a religion for sinners and they have the confessionals to prove this. Christian-ity is the lofty end of Catholicism and is therefore not a religion as such or it would not be the end to religious slavery and sin (see Gal.5:1 and 1Jn3:9). Catholicism is very much like Judaism and as such are both non-Christian religions but with the same noble end in mind. In this end Jews await the first coming of Christ while Catholics await the second coming of Christ because they recognize that Jesus of Nazareth showed us the way if and when we arrive at that point in life.

So yes, Catholicsm is still is a non-Christian religion in Christendom and the lofty end is still the same. The problem we have is that whenever a Catholic gets lost in his own jungle of life there will always be a number of protestants eager to show him the way to eternal damnation. The point here is that in Catholicism we wait for God to open the web of problems we have spun around ourselves and while we are waiting for this supernatural event to run its course marauding evangelists usurp this role as if they were vultures on a carcass.

lpetrich

Amos seems to be living in his own mental world, one that does not really intersect with ours.

Amos

Not really, it's just a presentation of my ideas about religion and the effect it has on our civilization. I may see things different but I live and work with 'normal' people.

DrJim

Amos, now you got me really confused.

So, Catholicism is a religion.


"Christian-ity" is, therefore a part of Catholicism which is a religion for sinners. You continue to say that Christian-ity is not a religion otherwise it would not be able to defeat sin:
Yet, you say:
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Catholicism can be a religion for sinners, yet Christian-ity cannot be a religion because it is a way to beat sin. Christian-ity is a part of Catholicism. But Catholocism is not one of the Christian religions, although it remains in "Christendom".

What in the Noun of Christ is going on here?????????

To my mind your use of terminology is very, shall we say, "fluid"?

Amos

Sorry and please know that confusion is never (?) my aim.

Yes it is.

No Christianity is not part of Catholicism because sinners are not Christians. Christians have defeated sin only because they have been set free from the law and therefore also from the conviction of sin. That is: no law equals no sin. I went to Gal. 5:1 to show this and if you go further to verse 4 you will find "any of you who seek your justification in the law have severed yourself from Christ and fallen from Gods favor!" Therefore, those under the conviction of the law and/or seek justification in the law are not Christians because they (even if they have been born again) have severed themselves from Christ and fallen from Gods favor.

The condition of being called Christian is not ours until we have found favor with God and left religion behind because of our favor with God. Notice how the "Cleansing of the Temple" was the first thing Jesus did after he was the honored guest at the Royal banquet in Cana, which clearly suggests that Christians should not go to church because religions are for sinners and sinners are not Christians. Besides, there are no temples in the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:22) and so the term "Christian religion" is rather absurd. "Christianity" may try to beat sin but you can't purify flesh. Flesh must be crucified for "there can be no testament if the testator is alive" (Hebrews 9:16).

Wayne Delia

But in order to become a Christian, one must confess that one is a sinner in need of redemption. I got it now - I think - wait a minute - no, I don't.Ooooohhhhh.... kaaaaaayyyyy..... (WMD backs slowly away). Wouldn't a reasonable conclusion from this argument be that Christians could break any laws at all, including the Ten Commandments, and presumably get away with it? Theologically, that is. They may get their asses thrown in jail for 25-to-life but their afterlife is all set, right?Would it be fair to characterize Christianity as lawlessness?<blank stare> So! How 'bout them Red Sox!So in order to qualify for your religion, you need to abandon your religion? "I would never join any club that would have me as a member." (Groucho Marx)It wasn't a "Royal" banquet, it was a "Wedding" banquet, and it makes no sense at all to ask any invited guest to clean up the church after the wedding ceremony, much less asking Jesus Christ Himself to put on an apron and grab a mop.Seriously, now, are you pulling our collective legs? The title of "Christian" is some ex-post-facto award based on not sinning for a certain period of time? Does it bother you that you might actually not be a Christian, because of some sin you might commit in the next few years, even though you (presumably) think you're currently a Christian?Don't sell yourself short. Your entire POST is rather absurd. So, in order to be a Christian, you need to abandon Christianity, not go to church, and somewhere along the line you need to testify to something after you're dead? Cool! Where do I sign up?

WMD (President, QueenOfSwords Fan Club)

Amos

Yes, you are right there President, the cross of eternal salvation is for sinners only but you fail to recognize that Laws were given to Moses for the conviction of sin (and thus not to stop sin). Therefore sin is good in the eyes of Moses and the Laws are to be used as an instrument to liberate the prior nature of humans (redemption of the Christ idenity in humans). It's kind of like fishing wherein the concept sin becomes the bait to liberate the prior nature of man that was lost because of 'original sin.'

Religious law has nothing to do with civil law or Pilate would have had something else to say.

Right, it was a wedding banquet between Jesus and Mary (Rev.21:9).

I have never called myself a Christian. If anything, I call myself a Catholic but not a very good one because I don't get to church very often.

In order to be a Christian you must first be called, and chosen, and after that religion must be adandonned.

The afterlife begins when religion is abandonned or religion had not served as a means to the end.

Amos

Not to answer my own post but I had little time to do it this morning so here I want to add that not just religion is to be abandonned but since religion is the vehicle that brought us to salvation it becomes more difficult to leave behind.

Religion must lead us far into the jungle of life and actually equip us so that we will go further than we normally would and only that way are we more likely to feel lost when the world (that we created as if with our own hands) seems to cave in around us. Would you not agree with this?

While we go West we place milestones of faith (we call them sacraments) along our journey West and they are to serve us only to get back into Eden. Confession is one such sacrament and is really a courage builder, if you think about it, because it continues to tell us that we are not that bad after all . . . as we continue our journey now by day and by night!

Indulgences would even make it better for us because they seem to make our journey out West uphill and so our return to Eden downhill and therefore faster.

So can you see now why religion must be abandonned when we do our metanoia?

You are probably thinking of Hansel and Grethel when they placed breadcrumbs along their journey West and how sin overshadowed their deeds of righteousness wherefore they remained lost and wanderer about in their own righteousness for the rest of their life . . . but died nonetheless in the end. Isn't that what a Christian religion would do for you?

Doctor X

Ah . . . yeah. . . .

--J.D.

DrJim

Actually from where I am sitting, it is EAST and not Eden that is downhill, bu thten up again soon, once you cross the Oldman River. To the west it is is pretty flat (untill you get closer to the mountains) but the journey is not through a jungle but the bald-bottomed prairie.

Guess that makes me an heretic then, eh?