Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dog-on · 08-08-2011, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Perhaps, but you did frame it quite nicely, except for the executed part, which I acknowledge may have been an expansion within the gloss.

There is virtually NO similarity in the passages in question by Tacitus and Suetonius.

You merely asked a question have just ASSUMED you know the answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

What do you think of the possibility of the Annals passage being the result of an expanded gloss based on the passage in Lives, replacing Claudius with Nero, Jews with Christians and Chrestus with Christus?...

This is a question not an argument.

When I do not know the answer, I usually start with a question. Should I do it the other way around, you think?

Toto · 08-08-2011, 08:58 AM

I recall that someone recently made an argument along these lines, but I don't recall the details.

aa5874 · 08-08-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

...When I do not know the answer, I usually start with a question. Should I do it the other way around, you think?

Well, well, well!!!

Look at your own post #7.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

My argument has to do with the similarity between the two passages....

It would seem that you have an argument not a question.

Minimalist · 08-08-2011, 06:49 PM

Sulpicius Severus, Chronica written at the beginning of the 5th century.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/PII11-5.TXT

Quote:

Is the meantime, the number of the Christians being now very large, it happened that Rome was destroyed by fire, while Nero was stationed at Antium. But the opinion of all cast the odium of causing the fire upon the emperor, and he was believed in this way to have sought for the glory of building a new city. And in fact, Nero could not by any means he tried escape from the charge that the fire had been caused by his orders. He therefore turned the accusation against the Christians, and the most cruel tortures were accordingly inflicted upon the innocent. Nay, even new kinds of death were invented, so that, being covered in the skins of wild beasts, they perished by being devoured by dogs, while many were crucified or slain by fire, and not a few were set apart for this purpose, that, when the day came to a close, they should be consumed to serve for light during the night. In this way, cruelty tint began to be manifested against the Christians. Afterwards, too, their religion was prohibited by laws which were enacted; and by edicts openly set forth it was proclaimed unlawful to be a Christian. At that time Paul and Peter were condemned to death, the former being beheaded with a sword, while Peter suffered crucifixion. And while these things went on at Rome, the Jews, not able to endure the injuries they suffered under the rule of Festus Florus, began to rebel.

No reference to Tacitus and more to the point the bit about Pilate does not appear. Yet, this is the closest that any ancient writer seems to get to the so-called Tacitus reference. This seems to be the basis for the later interpolation into Annales.

dog-on · 08-09-2011, 12:29 AM

Thanks Minimalist.

Doug Shaver · 08-09-2011, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

What do you think of the possibility of the Annals passage being the result of an expanded gloss based on the passage in Lives, replacing Claudius with Nero, Jews with Christians and Chrestus with Christus?

I am aware of no reason to think it is impossible.

aa5874 · 08-09-2011, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

What do you think of the possibility of the Annals passage being the result of an expanded gloss based on the passage in Lives, replacing Claudius with Nero, Jews with Christians and Chrestus with Christus?

I am aware of no reason to think it is impossible.

And, conversely, I am aware of NO reason why it should be possible.

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08-08-2011, 08:58 AM	#12
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I recall that someone recently made an argument along these lines, but I don't recall the details.

08-09-2011, 12:29 AM	#15
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	Thanks Minimalist.

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