Doug Shaver

Do you think Blomberg is mistaken? Did Strobel pick the wrong expert to interview about the authorship of the gospels?

Roger Pearse

You will excuse me from commenting on some quote-mining. The question is always "what is the evidence" not "whose authority do we believe", whoever these people might be.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Johnny Skeptic

Ok, what evidence is there regarding how the church leaders who put the New Testament Canon together decided which writings were Scripture, and which writings were not Scripture? Why was the Gospel of Thomas excluded?

PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

It is funny that I was going to urge people to read Philo's "Embassy to Gaius," to see what a real address to an emperor looked like in distinction from the phony Christian apologies. It is precisely because the addresses of the Christian Apologies are so totally alien to the spirit and description in the "Embassy to Gaius," that we can say that they are phony as hell.
Read how even King Agrippa kisses Caligula's ass when sending a petition to him (Gaius: 36):

He is too frightened even to come into Caligula's presence. He ends his petition with ass-kissing and abject humility:

This total humility and begging is the complete opposite of the prideful and nasty lecturing what we find in all the Christian Apologies.

When Philo attempts to deliver his address to the Emperor, he is no less frightened and no less filled with abject ass-kissing rhetoric, he finds however, that the emperor hardly even gives him a chance to start:

These are historical descriptions of a real petition and a real attempt at an address to an emperor. They resemble Christian apologies to the Emperors as day resembles night.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

avi

Then, one supposes, it would logically follow that "Memoirs of the Apostles" is equally a fictional document, which could thus, perhaps, explain why there is no historical record of any copy of Memoirs of the Apostles, having ever existed. Does it not follow then, however, that the earliest extant source for "the gospels" is Irenaeus? If one can accept the hypothesis that Tatian was a student of Justin Martyr, then, is Diatessaron also indicted as fake, comparable to the several works falsely attributed to Justin Martyr, but actually composed, according to Jay's hypothesis, in mid to late second century, i.e. post demise of Justin Martyr?

avi

andrewcriddle

I can't help feeling that it was thought prudent to give Caligula unusual amounts of abject flattery.

Andrew Criddle

mountainman

But this must easily be generalised for all Roman Emperors and Warlords (even today) with a large and milling army in train.

Roger Pearse

"He added to the enormity of his crimes by the brutality of his language. He used to say that there was nothing in his own character which he admired and approved more highly than what he called his ἀδιατρεψία, that is to say, his shameless impudence.

"When his grandmother Antonia gave him some advice, he was not satisfied merely to listen but replied: "Remember that I have the right to do anything to anybody." When he was on the point of killing his brother, and suspected that he had taken drugs as a precaution against poison, he cried: "What! an antidote against Caesar?"

"After banishing his sisters, he made the threat that he not only had islands, but swords as well. 2 An ex-praetor who had retired to Anticyra for his health, sent frequent requests for an extension of his leave, but Caligula had him put to death, adding that a man who had not been helped by so long a course of hellebore needed to be bled.

"On signing the list of prisoners who were to be put to death later, he said that he was clearing his accounts. Having condemned several Gauls and Greeks to death in a body, he boasted that he had subdued Gallograecia."

PhilosopherJay

Hi Avi,

Excellent point about "the Memoirs". I hadn't thought about that. The hypothesis that Justin's "Apology" is being written by some one else 20 or 30 years or more after the death of Justin and after the violent overthrow of his son Commodus would explain why we have never found the work. The writer knew that the Synoptic Gospels weren't in existence in the time of Justin, but he perhaps assumed they had been based on actual Memoirs of the Apostles.

Ireneus I think is a fictional character, but the writings attributed to hit are pretty earlier. I would also put them around 200 C.E, giving us dates around 170-190 for the Synoptics. John, I believe was earlier, but a bit of editing brought it more into line with the Synoptics around the time they were written, so it could be included with them. The original texts used to produce the works, I believe does come from the First century.

Since we don't have the original Diatesseron, and only vague descriptions of it, it is hard to say what it is or even if it existed.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

spamandham

In regards to Justin, his first Apology was directed "the Emperor Titus Ælius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Cæsar, and to his son Verissimus the Philosopher, and to Lucius the Philosopher, the natural son of Cæsar, and the adopted son of Pius".

Does history record any response from any of these people? Does it seem reasonable that Justin actually delivered this letter without swift and stern consequence? If not, what reason is there to think the letter was anything more than what we today would refer to as an 'open letter' - a letter intended to persuade others while being directed to someone who will probably never read it (possibly because they are long dead)?