Madkins007

The prohibition against alcohol is similar to that against gambling, dancing, wearing make up, various music, etc.

A lot of these grew out of various denominations that were attempting to regulate the behaviors of the congregations. The biblical justifications for them are stretched and distorted in incredible ways, but it becomes self-perpetuating as people grow up hearing and believing it.

Instead of teaching discernment, wisdom, personal responsibility and consequences, etc., many churches had instead gone the 'rules and commandments' route. Many continue to do so today.

It really is a shame!

By the way, much of the prohibition against alcohol is an American phenomena. Many European churches think caffine is the big danger (from what I have heard)!

inquisitive01

Prohibition? What prohibition? Once again, the Bible does not appear to be against drinking alcoholic beverages, but it does appear to be against drunkeness/intoxication from such alcoholic beverages ("wherein is excess").

diana

A couple of points are to be made from these remarks:

1. The Pharisees saw eating bread and drinking wine as so common that they accused JtB of having a devil because he abstained from these things.

2. Jesus said he came "eating and drinking." Drinking what? WINE.

Strong's concordance: * 1) a winebibber, given to wine, a wino. That would be "fruit of the vine, fermented, one ea."

3. Note also this verse was not followed by, "But I have been falsely accused...." In context, it looks to me like he's throwing up his hands in exasperation saying unto them, "I can't win! Me, people!"

4. Christians focus on his breaking bread with publicans and sinners as an admirable thing, and do not deny the truth of this "accusation." Part of the accusation (which we have just as much reason to believe was true) was that Jesus liked to party, but I rarely hear a Christian bragging about this. Why?

d

Dean Anderson

Yeah - but true Christians are immune to that...

Presumably, if you are a true Christian then you don't need to worry about drunkenness bacause alcohol won't hurt you so you won't get drunk.

chapka

This post again demonstrates the problem.

As I've already explained, even a single drink is enough to cause intoxication. Many people, and certainly most women who are light drinkers, will feel a noticeable effect--a "buzz"--from a single drink. (Sex, tolerance, and body weight are the main determiners of how quickly you feel a buzz). The Bible condemns drunkenness. Drunkenness, in that time as in ours, has a very specific connotation which is not the same as a "buzz" or any other level of intoxication, and which is not anything more than "a few sips".

What I suggested, at least, was that there was absolutely no evidence that any of the "wine" (or "beer" for that matter) in the bible was nonalcoholic, in contrast to the ordinary practice of the time. The only rationale your source gives for distinguishing when the wine being talked about is alcoholic versus nonalcoholic is that he assumes that alcohol is sinful. So the proof runs something like this: "Alcohol is bad, and so Jesus would never encourage drinking. Therefore, no matter how unlikely it seems, all of the "wine" in the bible is nonalcoholic."

This is despite the fact that I've never heard any other account of an ancient nonalcoholic Jewish wedding or seder. Again, I ask: when exactly did alcoholic wine become such an integral part of Jewish life, if it wasn't in the first century?

blt to go

Actually, chapka, this was not clear to me. Apparently the claim was that the Greek word for “wine�? was used for both non-alcoholic and alcoholic drink. Since it was the same word, in 2004 we can’t tell which it meant.

The only way that the author says to tell is by the context. If it is “bad�? it must be the alcoholic wine and if it is “good�? it must be grape juice. The ridiculousness of this position is seen in the verses themselves:
See how silly this is? A bishop can’t drink alcoholic wine, (but apparently all the grape juice they want) but a Deacon and Older woman can drink grape juice—just not much. Timothy was to use grape juice (not water) to settle his stomach.

I found the argument that the same word meant both a poor apologetic.

Naked Ape

Thanks, I will. Speaking as someone who has experience making wine and having just returned from a vacation that involved several winery tours, several of them with the winemasters of the wineries in question, I think I can state without fear of contradiction that a degree in theology, even at the doctorate level, imparts precious little knowledge of bio-chemistry. Wine making is all bio-chemistry and not so much about theology. Your good Doctor is talking out of his ass and hoping that his theology Phd will provide enough apparent authority to get credulous folks to believe him.
If you check back, the question involved hash brownies.
Do you really believe? Have you cured any lepers lately? Juggled any snakes?
Be sure and drink your hemlock tea before it gets cold!

Cheers,

Naked Ape

inquisitive01

I think that sums it up quite well, plus I don't see why you feel it's "silly" to tell which is which by the context. You can if you wish, though. :thumbs:

chapka

That was pretty much my point. Assuming the word didn't distinguish between alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages, the idea that the biblical text would use it to make a point about alcohol (which wasn't really understood at the time, anyway) seems strange. The only "context" that helps in that case is the mention of drunkenness in those passages where the Bible condemns drunkenness; the idea that any passage not mentioning drunkenness is therefore talking about a nonalcoholic rather than an alcoholic beverage is totally unsupported. To use the "context" of whether the mention is positive or negative is, of course, to assume your conclusion.

In addition, of course, the author provides no evidence that the drinking of nonalcoholic grape juice was common, only that the production of small amounts was technically possible. And the fact that we know that alcohol has been a fundamental part of seders and weddings for thousands of years is still unaccounted for.

inquisitive01

Since this particular "provides no evidence that the drinking of nonalcoholic grape juice was common," does that mean the drinking of nonalcoholic grape juice was not common?

Small amounts? :huh: