Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dado · 06-16-2004, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crucifiction

I was under the impression that many Catholics like to close their eyes and wish the Book of Revelation would go away.

now that you mention it, it does give the impression of an arms-length interpretation, lol. when newadvent cites dogma, it usually does so in a forceful "you'd better listen the fuck up" kind of way, and it doesn't do that here. presenting the case for inauthenticity should have been a clue...

CX · 06-16-2004, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallingblood

First, just the name in itself should tell you that it is about future times.

Did you read what I wrote? Clearly the title should not tell us it is about future times.

fallingblood · 06-16-2004, 04:45 PM

CX- sorry about that, I meant the same as you.

Madkins007 · 06-16-2004, 10:18 PM

gregor- what in 2Peter makes preterism indefensable?

Also, although there are many claims for the age of Revelations, there ARE credible claims that is was writen before the fact (although I tend to believe it was written pretty much at the same time as the Jewish Wars)

Madkins007 · 06-16-2004, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crucifiction

Madkins, I've attended five seperate churches in my lifetime, and they all said the same thing about the Book of Revelation; so while your "tradition" may not accept it, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts most DO.

I'll take that bet, and you lost.

As mentioned, Catholics, which ARE the majority do not accept it. Neither do the Mormons, nor most liberal denominations.

Your statement MIGHT be true of evangelical Protestant groups, but as they do not form the majority of Christianity, it wouldn't matter to the bet anyway.

5 whole churches, huh? Gee. I've only attended services from over a dozen different denominations and studied their beliefs to at least some degree, and I would NEVER claim to know what the majority of Christians believe.

Check here (http://www.fact-index.com/l/li/list_...minations.html) for a partial list of denominations, and you'll quickly see that your 5 churches don't amount to a hill of beans compared to the variety of beliefs within the Christian tradition (Mine don't either, for that matter!)

Let me know how you want to settle up the wager!

Madkins007 · 06-16-2004, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dado

i hear you. that's pretty much how Jews feel about x'ian attempts to proslytize them using whacky interpretations of the hebrew texts.

I bet!

FordMadoxBrown · 06-17-2004, 03:29 AM

The crackpot theory that Revelation refers to the twenty-first century is a pathetic ruse by fundamentalists to manipulate and frighten impressionable and vulnerable people into converting to their wacky religion.

This is the naked unexaggerated truth. I'm sorry if it sounds blunt but I have done with humoring these doomsters. It is time they were shown the door.

Any intelligent person can see that Revelation refers to its own day, specifically to the persecutions following 70AD.

Magdlyn · 06-17-2004, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CX

The fundamentalist interpretation of the Apocalypse assumes that it is more prophetic than apocalyptic. It is a recent invention (as is fundamentalism which is a 19th century American Protestant response to biblical text criticism), and such is unwarranted. Most of the Apocalypse refers to present history and near future from the perspective of the author. Additionally it appears to have been written by an ecstatic apocalyptic prophet so much of it is simple gibberish. The Apocalypse, in fact, was contested for centuries as a canonical book. In the end it is not a book of prophecy so much as a book of apocalyptic. The Greek word APOKALYPSIS means "revelation" and apocalyptic literature is not so much a prophecy of things to come as it is a revealing of the hidden meaning of things that are currently coming to pass. The eschatological implications are secondary.

CX, this was so eloquent. :notworthy May I quote you on another board? Please?

CX · 06-17-2004, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

CX, this was so eloquent. :notworthy May I quote you on another board? Please?

Feel free, though these were just off-the-cuff observations and hardly what I would call "eloquent". Anyway thanks for the compliment.

Jimi

CX · 06-17-2004, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordMadoxBrown

Any intelligent person can see that Revelation refers to its own day, specifically to the persecutions following 70AD.

Really? Odd that so many scholars date it to the end of the first century/beginning of the second century, think that it refers to the period at the end of the reign of Domitian and place it in the cultural context of Asia Minor. In fact it is likely not a response to widespread persecution of Xians per se but rather a response to the intensification of the Caesar cult by Domitian (who at the end of his reign insisted on being called Dominus et Deus Noster "our Lord and God") as well as a general decline in the enthusiasm of the Pauline churches in Asia Minor. In fact, I do not know of any reference concluding that the cultural milieu of Revelations is just subsequent to the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

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06-16-2004, 04:45 PM	#13
fallingblood Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mandan, ND Posts: 80	CX- sorry about that, I meant the same as you.

06-16-2004, 10:18 PM	#14
Madkins007 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Nebraska Posts: 591	gregor- what in 2Peter makes preterism indefensable? Also, although there are many claims for the age of Revelations, there ARE credible claims that is was writen before the fact (although I tend to believe it was written pretty much at the same time as the Jewish Wars)

06-17-2004, 03:29 AM	#17
FordMadoxBrown Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Crewe, England Posts: 51	The crackpot theory that Revelation refers to the twenty-first century is a pathetic ruse by fundamentalists to manipulate and frighten impressionable and vulnerable people into converting to their wacky religion. This is the naked unexaggerated truth. I'm sorry if it sounds blunt but I have done with humoring these doomsters. It is time they were shown the door. Any intelligent person can see that Revelation refers to its own day, specifically to the persecutions following 70AD.

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