Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 07-05-2008, 01:51 PM

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"Lover of God who contributed the altar to the god Jesus Christos, as a memorial."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Israel+bey...e%209-Nov-2005

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Megiddo Prison dig yields rare 3rd-4th century Christian structure

9 Nov 2005 Drawing of fish on the mosaic floor discovered in the Megiddo Prison excavation.

Clivedurdle · 07-05-2008, 02:02 PM

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THE LEGEND OF THE FISH
by N. D. K., F.T.S.

from "The Theosophist", March 1885

[This is a continuation of the preceding article THE IRANIAN 0ANNES
that was published in " The Theosophist," of March, 1885]

reproduced from "Theosophical Siftings" Volume 6 of year 1893-1894
Mons. LeNormant in his learned work "Chaldean Magic", thus gives the old legend regarding the Fish Avatar.
"There were three zones of the Universe; the heavens, the terrestrial surface with the atmosphere, and the lower abyss. The three greatest Gods, Ana, Hea, and Mulge or Elim, answered to or presided over these zones.
"The name Hea means 'dwelling'. This name then was manifestly connected with the time when the God was first imagined to be the same as the zone over which he presided, the zone which served as a home for men and animated beings. Hea afterwards was invoked as the spirit of the terraqueous surface and also as lord of the region of the atmosphere. The spirit of this zone of the Universe, he was also the soul which animated everything, penetrated into everything, and made everything which existed in the Universe live and move. The Accadians (and they transmitted this idea to the Chaldaic-Babylonians of more recent ages) considered the humid element as the vehicle of all life and the source of all generation. They saw this element circulating everywhere in the zone which embraces the terrestrial surface and the atmosphere. Hea was the soul and spirit of it, and therefore, according to them, closely connected with the humid element. It was specially his domain: the waters were worshipped in their material reality, and the spirits presiding over them were his children. He had no father assigned to him, but he was eternally begotten in the bosom of the humid element; he was said to have issued [Page 17] from the celestial ocean personified as a goddess Tiku. His usual dwelling was in the great reservoir (Abzu or arra) which surrounded the earth. From this point but one step was necessary to represent him under the ostensible form of a fish-God, and this step was taken; for one of his most usual titles was 'the great fish', or 'the sublime fish'.
"As the spirit of the inhabited world and the soul directing its phenomena, Hea is the repository of all science. And here we have the chain of ideas which led to this odd notion that the learned God should also be an ichthyomorphous [Having the form of a fish] God. It passed into the Chaldaic-Babylonian religion with the God Hea himself, and he appeared under this form in the cosmogonic legend, where he was the Oannes of Berosus, revealing religious and social laws to men. According to extracts from the Grecian historian of Chaldea, 'he had the body of a fish entire, but under his fish's head there was a second human head, while human feet appeared under his tail and he possessed a human voice. This monster spent the whole day amongst men without taking any food, while he taught them letters, science, and the principles of every art, the rules for the foundation of towns, the building of temples, the measurements and boundaries of lands, seed-time and harvest, in short, all that could advance civilization, so that nothing new has been invented since that period. Then at sunset this great Oannes [According to Berosus, as quoted by Apollodorus, there were many of these fish Avatars of the Supreme Being which were called Annedoti, the first after the lapse of 40 Sari, the 2nd after 26, the 3rd after 18 [or 28] Sari, then a 4th, and finally a 5th named Odacon] regained the sea and passed the night in the vast region of waves, for he was amphibious'.
"As the soul of that zone of the world inhabited by living beings, of the 'dwelling' pre-eminently, Hea was the God who 'sees that all is in order', and who defended the frame of nature against the incessant ravages of the wicked spirits. Since he was the God acquainted with science, he knew all their ruses and was able to baffle them; and therefore he alone was possessed of the magic secrets by means of which they could be conquered and repulsed.
"Hence the exceptional importance of the position of Hea in the arts of conjurational magic, of which he was the great God. Hea is the supreme protector of men and nature in the struggle, caused by the antagonism between good and evil, as the annuller and averter of fatal influences, and as the author of theurgic action. Help was sought from him when neither word, rite, talisman, nor even the intervention of any other of the gods had availed to destroy the demon's power".
The trace of an analogous legend that is to be found in the Avesta is interesting to examine. [Page 18]

In the Bchram and Din Yashts, Zarathustra is said to have been given by these angels, "strength of arms, health of the body and strength of sight as Karo Masyo, the Kar-fish possesses it, who is under the water, and who is able to see (the minutest things) thin as a hair, a thousand fathoms deep".

http://www.theosophical.ca/LegendOfTheFishNDK.html

Let us ignore the fact this is by the Theosophical society - this is accepted history.

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=243744

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Oannes

Mesopotamian mythology

Main

in Mesopotamian mythology, an amphibious being who taught mankind wisdom. Oannes, as described by the Babylonian priest Berosus, had the form of a fish but with the head of a man under his fish’s head and under his fish’s tail the feet of a man. In the daytime he came up to the seashore of the Persian Gulf and instructed mankind in writing, the arts, and the sciences. Oannes was probably the emissary of Ea, god of the freshwater deep and of wisdom.

Related Links

Aspects of this topic are discussed in the following places at Britannica.
Assorted References

account by Berosus ( in Berosus ) In his first book Berosus described the land of Babylonia, to which the half man-half fish Oannes and other divinities coming out of the sea brought civilization, and told the story of the creation according to the native legend, which led to his account of Chaldean astrology. The second and third books contained the chronology and history of Babylonia and of later Assyria, beginning with the...
in Mesopotamia, history of: The classical and medieval views of Mesopotamia; its rediscovery in modern times ) Berosus’ first book dealt with the beginnings of the world and with a myth of a composite being, Oannes, half fish, half man, who came ashore in Babylonia at a time when men still lived like the wild beasts. Oannes taught them the essentials of civilization: writing, the arts, law, agriculture, surveying, and architecture. The name Oannes must have been derived from the cuneiform U’anna...

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/423478/Oannes>.

Clivedurdle · 07-05-2008, 02:08 PM

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It is worth noting that John baptising by water and his successor by fire has parallels with Sumerian mythology. Enki, who the Babylonians later knew as Ea, had become known as Oannes by the time of John, and Oannes is almost identical to Ioannes, which is how the name of John the Baptist is spelt in the original Greek of the New Testament. Enki/Oannes was the god of (pure) water, and although the first god, the god of creation, over time he lost significance, while the sun god grew more important. Hence in folklore of the period in the surrounding region, Oannes, god of water, was superseded by the god of the sun, the god of fire. That this folklore surrounding Oannes may have influenced a narrative built around a historic figure named Ioannes, is of course somewhat tenuous, though the connection is frequently made by those who question the Historicity of Jesus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_of_Jesus

Did anyone here write that?

Cesc · 07-05-2008, 04:57 PM

Nice articles. I've also pondered on Enki/Ea quite abit and he's a very interesting god. I believe Ea was immensely popular and had a huge period as chief diety throughout large areas of Mesopotamia before Marduk's rise, as also said in the theosophical piece. And is arguably identified with Jah (Ea = Ia) at Ebla. It was also Ea who warned the Babylonian Noah of the impending flood since he had such a love for mankind. And I've speculated freely that he was also the influence of the Jahve which helped Moses with magic tricks against pharaoh aswell as other early aspects of Jahve.

The first incarnation of Vishnu was also as a half-man half-fish, I believe. And that it was in this fish-form Vishnu saved the Hindu Noah's ark, dragging it unto a top of a rock. Vishnu's consort Davkina is prolly the same as Ea's consort Dav-ki.

The Babylonians are said to have considered divine Wisdom to reside in water, especially the abzu, and Ea exercised power over the divine creational principle by controlling the masculine and feminine forces with his mere thoughts. And the ancient Babylonian powerful fertility symbol of the creational (holy) waters of the womb united with the phallos, as seen here by Oannes/Dagon, is continued in various religions today, incl. Catholicism it seems. Effectively making the priests Ioannes/Dagon/John the Baptists?

I've also heard the Pope's mitre is relic of the Oannes/Dagon priests lol! Seems mostly like anti-Catholic propaganda to me, but who knows.

The Greeks could've perhaps added the "I" infront of Oannes thus forming the Greek title Io? As in Ionah or "Iota", the yod (=10), a mystic symbol for Jahve (10 in our numbers are the phallos and oval) aswell as for Jesus (first letter). And perhaps as in the Latin Jupiter, Juno and Jove.

If Ea was the origin of the sign of Aquarius the waterman, as has been suggested, we might also draw parallels with John the Baptist here in an astal-theological understanding.

The fish symbolism of Jesus could also have come from either equating Jesus the Christ with Jesus the son of Fish, Moses's powerful successor who lead the Israelites to the promised land (Joshua ben Nun). This equation would not be unlike the essenes with thier suffering Teacher of Righteousness, seeing everything in divine cycles of history as they did. Jesus/Joshua of the Fish come back to lead the Jews to salvation once again.

Or as I've said, JC as the minister of the "age of Pisces". I read recently that the two fishes is often pictured in the Roman catacombs, the fish being the early secret Christian symbol. Its not uncommon to see the astrological symbol of Pisces in churches. Why, I dont know. But its certainly befitting.

Cesc · 07-05-2008, 05:15 PM

I've also been led to believe that the concept of John the Baptist is also arguably a play on words from the Semitic origin of that character lost in the Greek interpretation: that the Aramaic word "baptise" is 'amad and the Hebrew word "pillar" is the same word, 'amad (also means "stand" which perhaps accounts for Simon Magus's title 'the Standing One', a mistranslation of 'the Pillar').

Thus John the Baptist is also John the Pillar. Not insignificant considering the importance of the symbolism of "Pillar" in the early Christian context.

It may seem strange or coincidental, but if we follow that line of thought we could begin see John the Baptist as the "Pillar of Dawn", which was a Hebrew name for the Day-star or Morningstar, Venus. Which not only precedes the light and brings the light into the world (the sun) though it is not itself the light, but also "baptises" the earth with the morning dew (Pliny) in a fertility understanding as with the baptism ritual. Which is all precisely the description and the role of John.
Note also the name of the mystical Judaeo-Christian sect of the Haemerobaptists, meaning Day-bathers - or Day-Pillars/Pillars of Dawn.

Now, if John is the baptizer/Pillar of Water (cloud) then his successor would naturally be the baptizer/Pillar of Fire? The two pillars of Jahve (male/female). Venus as the Morninstar is evidently a mystic symbol in Christianity and all these "pillars" of the early church would surely be considered as having the "Day-star risen in their hearts" as Peter says in some mystical understanding (2 Peter 1:19). Jesus himself is the Morningstar (Rev 22:16) and in Rev 2:26-28 it is apparently equated with divine power.

Chili · 07-05-2008, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Does Revelation speak of an hj?

When it talks of Jesus coming does it actually talk of Jesus coming again?

Yes he does, Christ (John here) stayed and Jesus left to come again. Christ actually moved to Rome so Jesus can come again to lead the strayed sheep home again (John and Jesus were bosum buddies wherein John was the pillar of water and Jesus the pillar of fire).

Oh, for sure no historical Jesus or he could not come again . . . wherefore pillar John had to stay as if he was the Alpha determinate while Jesus is the Omega through the ages bringing new earthly riches home.

Remember here that John was born out of the tradition and Jesus was from this generation. . . bosum buddies for sure but greater was John by far.

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07-05-2008, 04:57 PM	#14
Cesc Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 322	Nice articles. I've also pondered on Enki/Ea quite abit and he's a very interesting god. I believe Ea was immensely popular and had a huge period as chief diety throughout large areas of Mesopotamia before Marduk's rise, as also said in the theosophical piece. And is arguably identified with Jah (Ea = Ia) at Ebla. It was also Ea who warned the Babylonian Noah of the impending flood since he had such a love for mankind. And I've speculated freely that he was also the influence of the Jahve which helped Moses with magic tricks against pharaoh aswell as other early aspects of Jahve. The first incarnation of Vishnu was also as a half-man half-fish, I believe. And that it was in this fish-form Vishnu saved the Hindu Noah's ark, dragging it unto a top of a rock. Vishnu's consort Davkina is prolly the same as Ea's consort Dav-ki. The Babylonians are said to have considered divine Wisdom to reside in water, especially the abzu, and Ea exercised power over the divine creational principle by controlling the masculine and feminine forces with his mere thoughts. And the ancient Babylonian powerful fertility symbol of the creational (holy) waters of the womb united with the phallos, as seen here by Oannes/Dagon, is continued in various religions today, incl. Catholicism it seems. Effectively making the priests Ioannes/Dagon/John the Baptists? I've also heard the Pope's mitre is relic of the Oannes/Dagon priests lol! Seems mostly like anti-Catholic propaganda to me, but who knows. The Greeks could've perhaps added the "I" infront of Oannes thus forming the Greek title Io? As in Ionah or "Iota", the yod (=10), a mystic symbol for Jahve (10 in our numbers are the phallos and oval) aswell as for Jesus (first letter). And perhaps as in the Latin Jupiter, Juno and Jove. If Ea was the origin of the sign of Aquarius the waterman, as has been suggested, we might also draw parallels with John the Baptist here in an astal-theological understanding. The fish symbolism of Jesus could also have come from either equating Jesus the Christ with Jesus the son of Fish, Moses's powerful successor who lead the Israelites to the promised land (Joshua ben Nun). This equation would not be unlike the essenes with thier suffering Teacher of Righteousness, seeing everything in divine cycles of history as they did. Jesus/Joshua of the Fish come back to lead the Jews to salvation once again. Or as I've said, JC as the minister of the "age of Pisces". I read recently that the two fishes is often pictured in the Roman catacombs, the fish being the early secret Christian symbol. Its not uncommon to see the astrological symbol of Pisces in churches. Why, I dont know. But its certainly befitting.

07-05-2008, 05:15 PM	#15
Cesc Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 322	I've also been led to believe that the concept of John the Baptist is also arguably a play on words from the Semitic origin of that character lost in the Greek interpretation: that the Aramaic word "baptise" is 'amad and the Hebrew word "pillar" is the same word, 'amad (also means "stand" which perhaps accounts for Simon Magus's title 'the Standing One', a mistranslation of 'the Pillar'). Thus John the Baptist is also John the Pillar. Not insignificant considering the importance of the symbolism of "Pillar" in the early Christian context. It may seem strange or coincidental, but if we follow that line of thought we could begin see John the Baptist as the "Pillar of Dawn", which was a Hebrew name for the Day-star or Morningstar, Venus. Which not only precedes the light and brings the light into the world (the sun) though it is not itself the light, but also "baptises" the earth with the morning dew (Pliny) in a fertility understanding as with the baptism ritual. Which is all precisely the description and the role of John. Note also the name of the mystical Judaeo-Christian sect of the Haemerobaptists, meaning Day-bathers - or Day-Pillars/Pillars of Dawn. Now, if John is the baptizer/Pillar of Water (cloud) then his successor would naturally be the baptizer/Pillar of Fire? The two pillars of Jahve (male/female). Venus as the Morninstar is evidently a mystic symbol in Christianity and all these "pillars" of the early church would surely be considered as having the "Day-star risen in their hearts" as Peter says in some mystical understanding (2 Peter 1:19). Jesus himself is the Morningstar (Rev 22:16) and in Rev 2:26-28 it is apparently equated with divine power.

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