God Fearing Atheist

On page 449 of Suns of God, Acharya writes:

This so impressed me that I have decided to go public with my own theory derived, in part, from Theophilus; that ancient Christians thought the universe was a giant pomegranate. From the same work, 1.5:

:Cheeky:

Toto

But it was not presented as anything other than Campbell's description.

Only those who quote Campbell.

This is getting off topic. The passage in question was introduced to indicate that Dionysos was born of a virgin (actually born of intercourse beween a young woman and a god, but close enough for mythologists.)

Jeffrey Gibson

Not only does AS's beg the question about to whom Luke "evidently" addressed his Gospel, but, more importantly, she neglects to tell us (because she didn't know?) that immediately preceding the text of "To Autolychus" she gives us, Theophilus says:

and that much of the letter is devoted to showing how foolish it is (and was for the ancients) to think that things like the sun were gods and deserved worship.

One wonders (again) whether, as in the case of Tetrullian, AS' "knowledge" of what Theophilus says in To Autolychus is second (or third) hand.

In the light of this evidence, they must have!

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

But the problem is that Campbell is here not speaking about the Dionysus of standard Greek religion, who was gestated in, but not born of a mortal woman, but of the Orphic Dionysus, as identified with Zagreus, who was conceived with and born of a goddess.

And (with thanks to Michael Chase) there is tremendous controversy over whether the Orphic story (in which Dionysus is reconstituted, not reborn, after being gobbled up/torn to pieces by Titans) is an authentically old Orphic mythologem (the view, basically, of Alberto Bernabe and Ana Isabel Jiménez San Cristóbal), or a very late Neoplatonic invention (the view of Luc Brisson).

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle

This is an originally Greek - not xian - idea, directly related to the continuing wars with the Persians who did worship the sun.

We really must discuss Zarathustra!

Jeffrey Gibson

And your primary evidence for this, and for Greeks denying that the sun was divine, is ...?

Jeffrey

God Fearing Atheist

Aye. I wonder how Acharya accounts for this line, immediately prior to the pomegranates:

How does this distinction make any sense if Theophilus understands God to actually be the sun?

ETA: Also, does anyone have this in it's original language? I'm curious to see what word is translated as 'type'.

Jeffrey Gibson

You may have to wait awhile. I still haven't had an answer from her to the questions I posed several times a few days ago about where specifically in the Marcrobius' Saturnalia the "quotes" (from the Davies' translation of it) she gives us appears and whether or not she's ever actually looked at the original Latin that stands behind the "quote".

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

The word is:τύπος. LSJ entry here.


Here's the line in context:

Quote:

2.15 τετάρτὴ ἡμέρʹ ἐγένοντο οἱ φωστῆρεs. ἐπειδὴ ὁ θεὸs προγνώςτηs ὢν ἥπίστατο τὰs φλυαρίαs τῶν ματαίων φιλοσόφων, ὅτι ἤμελλον λέγειν ἀπὸ τῶν στοιχείων εἶναι τὰ ἐπὶ τῆs γῆs φυόμενα, πρὸs τὸ ἀθετεῖν τὸν θεόν· ἵν' οὖν τὸ ἀληθὲs δειχθὴ , προγενέστερα γέγονεν τὰ φυτὰ καὶ τὰ σπέρματα τῶν στοιχείων· τὰ γὰρ μεταγενέστερα οὐ δύναται ποιεῖν τὰ αὐτῶν προγενέστερα. ταῦτα δὲ δεῖγμα καὶ τύπον ἐπέχει μεγάλου μυστηρίου. ὁ γὰρ ἥλιοs ἐν τύπώ θεοῦ ἐστιν, ἡ δὲ σελήνη ἀνθρώπου. καὶ ὥσπερ ὁ ἥλιοs πολὺ διαφέρει τῆs σελήνηs δυνάμει καὶ δόξή, οὕτωs πολὺ διαφέρει ὁ θεὸs τῆs ἀνθρωπότητοs καὶ καθάπερ ὁ ἥλιοs πλήρηs πάντοτε διαμένει μὴ ἐλάσσων γινόμενοs, οὕτωs πάντοτε ὁ θεὸs τέλειοs διαμένει, πλήρηs ὢν πάσηs δυνάμεωs καὶ συνέσεωs καὶ σοφίαs καὶ ἀθανασίαs καὶ πάντων τῶν ἀγαθῶν· ἡ δὲ σελήνη κατὰ μῆνα φθίνει καὶ δυνάμει ἀποθνήσκει, ἐν τύπῶ οὖσα ἀνθρώπου, ἔπειτα ἀναγεννᾶται καὶ αὔξει εἰs δεῖγμα τῆs μελλούσηs ἔσεσθαι ἀναστάσεωs.

Jeffrey

God Fearing Atheist

Excellent. Thank you.