Freethought & Rationalism Archive

No Robots · 11-27-2006, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Well, if I'm getting this right, then the fig tree represented the Jews, whom Jesus was cursing as they were never bear fruit for him, thus they would wither and die.

Seems reasonable, but I still think that this story came from somewhere else and Mark didn't make it up himself.

My impression is that, as far as Jesus's words and deeds themselves are concerned, the Gospels are pretty free of outright fabrication. There is of course, however, always the presence of accretions to be contended with. I would guess myself that Jesus, in giving vent to his frustration with the resistance to his message, did something like curse a fig tree. The actual withering of the tree as a result of this curse is, of course, a fabulation.

HeretiKc · 11-27-2006, 12:41 PM

Bah, found it--it was indeed Maccoby, and had nothing to do with Robert M. Price. :grin:

Quote:

A curious confirmation of autumn being the time of the Triumphal Entry can be found in the story of Jesus cursing the fig tree, which happened immediately after his Entry. Jesus, apparently, came across a fig tree without fruit, and said, "Let no fruit grow on thee henceforth for ever"... Now this must have occurred in the autumn, as no one would expect to find a fig tree bearing fruit in the spring. The reason for Jesus's angry reaction is probably this: the Hebrew Prophets had foretold that the time of the Messiah would be one of unprecedented fertility of plants and animals (Joel ii. 22: "...the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength"). Jesus, with his Galilean belief in evil spirits, may have thought that the fig tree contained an evil spirit that was fighting against the kingdom of God.

(from "Jesus and the Jewish Resistance". Abridged from Revolution in Judea: Jesus and the Jewish Resistance by Hyam Maccoby)

Toto · 11-27-2006, 12:45 PM

I think that the symbolism is clear - the fig tree is a well known symbol for Israel, and it dies because it did not support Jesus. I don't know of a method of deciding if there is a "historical core" to this little story.

Please explain the fig tree from positiveatheism

Quote:

Some will try to tell you about this special fig that grows only in the Middle East that is in season during Easter time. I respond by pointing out that I don't need to know anything about special figs because Mark says it wasn't fig season -- right there in the Bible! My favorite ones, though, are the ones who try to make the story some sort of metaphor. Taken at face value, it's a story about how if you just have enough faith, you can do anything. This was Jeanne's response in "On The Subject Of Jesus And The Fig Tree."

The rest tend to say that the fig tree represents the nation of Israel, and its barrenness represents the fact that the Jews did not accept Jesus as their personal savior but saw him for what he was: a man who said, "Let us worship other gods (namely, himself) that our fathers did not worship" and they did to him what the Hebrew Scriptures commanded them to do to those who act like this -- they killed him (or so the story goes -- I don't believe a word of it, mind you). So, since the Jews didn't believe in Jesus, they were destroyed. I like to point out the despicable morality contained in all this, that this story teaches people to solve their disputes with violence.

No Robots · 11-27-2006, 12:57 PM

Maccoby would never acknowledge that Jesus was symbolically condemning Israel: see his profile here. It is bizarre that it is not understood that when Jesus is hard on Israel, it is in exactly the same spirit as the earlier prophets:

Woe to you who are complacent in Zion--Amos 6:1

That prophetic condemnation is Christ's intent can be seen in Matthew, where the episode with the fig tree (21:19-20) is followed by the parable of the householder (21:33-41), which concludes with:

He will bring those evil men to an evil end; and will let out his vineyard to other husbandmen, that shall render him the fruit in due season.

djrafikie · 11-27-2006, 01:06 PM

Figs look rude. no, really, they do! especially in the unripe stage...they look like cunt.

Malachi151 · 11-27-2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeretiKc

Bah, found it--it was indeed Maccoby, and had nothing to do with Robert M. Price. :grin:

(from "Jesus and the Jewish Resistance". Abridged from Revolution in Judea: Jesus and the Jewish Resistance by Hyam Maccoby)

I find that explanation utterly unconvincing. It assumes a real live Jesus, whom the author can read the thoughts and motivations of!

No, I see the gospel of Mark as a constructed story, where each part has some symbolic meaning and ties back to existing scriptures or other popular midrash, etc.

Malachi151 · 11-27-2006, 01:12 PM

Thanks Toto, No Robots, those look like pretty good interpretations.

HeretiKc · 11-27-2006, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

...whom the author can read the thoughts and motivations of!

Isn't this a large part of the foundation that higher criticism itself rests on (except, in this case, replace "Jesus" with "authors of gospels")?

Gamera · 11-27-2006, 01:42 PM

Perhaps a reference to this:

Hosea 9
Punishment for Israel
1 Do not rejoice, O Israel;
do not be jubilant like the other nations.
For you have been unfaithful to your God;
you love the wages of a prostitute
at every threshing floor.

2 Threshing floors and winepresses will not feed the people;
the new wine will fail them.

3 They will not remain in the LORD's land;
Ephraim will return to Egypt
and eat unclean [a] food in Assyria.

4 They will not pour out wine offerings to the LORD,
nor will their sacrifices please him.
Such sacrifices will be to them like the bread of mourners;
all who eat them will be unclean.
This food will be for themselves;
it will not come into the temple of the LORD.

5 What will you do on the day of your appointed feasts,
on the festival days of the LORD ?

6 Even if they escape from destruction,
Egypt will gather them,
and Memphis will bury them.
Their treasures of silver will be taken over by briers,
and thorns will overrun their tents.

7 The days of punishment are coming,
the days of reckoning are at hand.
Let Israel know this.
Because your sins are so many
and your hostility so great,
the prophet is considered a fool,
the inspired man a maniac.

8 The prophet, along with my God,
is the watchman over Ephraim, [b]
yet snares await him on all his paths,
and hostility in the house of his God.

9 They have sunk deep into corruption,
as in the days of Gibeah.
God will remember their wickedness
and punish them for their sins.

10 "When I found Israel,
it was like finding grapes in the desert;
when I saw your fathers,
it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree.
But when they came to Baal Peor,
they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol
and became as vile as the thing they loved.

Also Joel 1 uses the fig tree and its ruination as a sign of a punishment from God.

No Robots · 11-27-2006, 01:49 PM

Gamera: thanks for taking the time to find that. That's precisely what we wanted.

We need some of that shit for the good ol' US of A:

Hollywood and Vine hath dried up,
And the cherry tree doth languish.

--Billy Joel 1:12

11-27-2006, 12:57 PM	#14
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	Maccoby would never acknowledge that Jesus was symbolically condemning Israel: see his profile here. It is bizarre that it is not understood that when Jesus is hard on Israel, it is in exactly the same spirit as the earlier prophets: Woe to you who are complacent in Zion--Amos 6:1 That prophetic condemnation is Christ's intent can be seen in Matthew, where the episode with the fig tree (21:19-20) is followed by the parable of the householder (21:33-41), which concludes with: He will bring those evil men to an evil end; and will let out his vineyard to other husbandmen, that shall render him the fruit in due season.

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11-27-2006, 01:06 PM	#15
djrafikie Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: u.k, back of beyond, we have scones and cream teas Posts: 2,534	Figs look rude. no, really, they do! especially in the unripe stage...they look like cunt.

11-27-2006, 01:12 PM	#17
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Thanks Toto, No Robots, those look like pretty good interpretations.

11-27-2006, 01:42 PM	#19
Gamera Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Springs, California Posts: 10,955	Perhaps a reference to this: Hosea 9 Punishment for Israel 1 Do not rejoice, O Israel; do not be jubilant like the other nations. For you have been unfaithful to your God; you love the wages of a prostitute at every threshing floor. 2 Threshing floors and winepresses will not feed the people; the new wine will fail them. 3 They will not remain in the LORD's land; Ephraim will return to Egypt and eat unclean [a] food in Assyria. 4 They will not pour out wine offerings to the LORD, nor will their sacrifices please him. Such sacrifices will be to them like the bread of mourners; all who eat them will be unclean. This food will be for themselves; it will not come into the temple of the LORD. 5 What will you do on the day of your appointed feasts, on the festival days of the LORD ? 6 Even if they escape from destruction, Egypt will gather them, and Memphis will bury them. Their treasures of silver will be taken over by briers, and thorns will overrun their tents. 7 The days of punishment are coming, the days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this. Because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the inspired man a maniac. 8 The prophet, along with my God, is the watchman over Ephraim, [b] yet snares await him on all his paths, and hostility in the house of his God. 9 They have sunk deep into corruption, as in the days of Gibeah. God will remember their wickedness and punish them for their sins. 10 "When I found Israel, it was like finding grapes in the desert; when I saw your fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree. But when they came to Baal Peor, they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol and became as vile as the thing they loved. Also Joel 1 uses the fig tree and its ruination as a sign of a punishment from God.

11-27-2006, 01:49 PM	#20
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	Gamera: thanks for taking the time to find that. That's precisely what we wanted. We need some of that shit for the good ol' US of A: Hollywood and Vine hath dried up, And the cherry tree doth languish. --Billy Joel 1:12

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